It seems like he could run so much faster with just a little more mileage and actual workouts.
It seems like he could run so much faster with just a little more mileage and actual workouts.
Just my opinion: yes. But maybe he is happy and enjoying his life more this way.
I disagree.
Drew has been hurt recently, even withdrawing from Worlds last year because of a repeated foot issue. He's young and so what's the rush in bumping up the intensity and volume? Tom has coached him for a while, so he's got a good read on what they've done and on where they are going.
It's super easy to sit back and say that they should do X, Y, and Z...but, that's just not how it goes sometimes.
Tinman is the REASON for Hunter's success. He is a highly injury prone runner, most other coaches would have got him chronically injured.
Tinman CV training kept him injury-free through HS, imagine he had Nico Young's coach who is regularly hammering 1k reps at 2:40 pace or doing 2xMile workouts in 4:10, 4:16 etc. Hunter's body would have just broken down.
Tinman allowed a talented runner to prosper - gradually building him up, making him a very strong runner in many aspects. He is doing/has done the same to other runners - Aidan Puffer, Judson Greer, the Ping's, all current HS runners that are doing incredibly well for themselves.
His career is already lasting longer than other talented HS runners. German Fernandez quietly ended his career during college. Cain also skipped college, got the "high intensity" training that everyone here is recommending Hunter, and just broke down. I'd rather have Hunter in the hands of Tinman, knowing he is going to keep him healthy, allow him to develop long-term, run and race up to his genetic limits, than put him under some crazy program that might lead to 1 or 2 short-term results, but ends up destroying his body and career.
Probably, but so could you.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Tinman is the REASON for Hunter's success. He is a highly injury prone runner, most other coaches would have got him chronically injured.
Tinman CV training kept him injury-free through HS, imagine he had Nico Young's coach who is regularly hammering 1k reps at 2:40 pace or doing 2xMile workouts in 4:10, 4:16 etc. Hunter's body would have just broken down.
Tinman allowed a talented runner to prosper - gradually building him up, making him a very strong runner in many aspects. He is doing/has done the same to other runners - Aidan Puffer, Judson Greer, the Ping's, all current HS runners that are doing incredibly well for themselves.
His career is already lasting longer than other talented HS runners. German Fernandez quietly ended his career during college. Cain also skipped college, got the "high intensity" training that everyone here is recommending Hunter, and just broke down. I'd rather have Hunter in the hands of Tinman, knowing he is going to keep him healthy, allow him to develop long-term, run and race up to his genetic limits, than put him under some crazy program that might lead to 1 or 2 short-term results, but ends up destroying his body and career.
I could not agree more.
I think he would benefit from the resources of some of the other clubs. I don’t know what all he has access to and pays for, but other clubs have physios, massages, chiro, alter g treadmills, underwater treadmills, trainers specifically for weight training and core routines.
Pretending to be blue collar is great, but it’s probably not the optimal setting.
Didn’t Tom say that he could run around 3:54, 8:25, and 13:30 his senior year but it was derailed by Lyme disease?
If that’s true, he hasn’t improved much in 4 years.
The pings?! Lol
Give Hunter to Bosshard or Wetmore, or someone like Mike Smith or Salazar (sans dopey popey) and he is more successful than he is now. But Tom is doing fine with him. Probably about as good as someone like Lee Troop or Greg Weiss would do in a similar situation.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Tinman is the REASON for Hunter's success. He is a highly injury prone runner, most other coaches would have got him chronically injured.
Tinman CV training kept him injury-free through HS, imagine he had Nico Young's coach who is regularly hammering 1k reps at 2:40 pace or doing 2xMile workouts in 4:10, 4:16 etc. Hunter's body would have just broken down.
Tinman allowed a talented runner to prosper - gradually building him up, making him a very strong runner in many aspects. He is doing/has done the same to other runners - Aidan Puffer, Judson Greer, the Ping's, all current HS runners that are doing incredibly well for themselves.
His career is already lasting longer than other talented HS runners. German Fernandez quietly ended his career during college. Cain also skipped college, got the "high intensity" training that everyone here is recommending Hunter, and just broke down. I'd rather have Hunter in the hands of Tinman, knowing he is going to keep him healthy, allow him to develop long-term, run and race up to his genetic limits, than put him under some crazy program that might lead to 1 or 2 short-term results, but ends up destroying his body and career.
Imagine you actually knew what anyone was doing. You watch a few videos and think you know how someone trains.
The worst coaches are the biggest critics on letsrun (AKA LateRunnerPhil)
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Tinman is the REASON for Hunter's success. He is a highly injury prone runner, most other coaches would have got him chronically injured.
Tinman CV training kept him injury-free through HS, imagine he had Nico Young's coach who is regularly hammering 1k reps at 2:40 pace or doing 2xMile workouts in 4:10, 4:16 etc. Hunter's body would have just broken down.
Tinman allowed a talented runner to prosper - gradually building him up, making him a very strong runner in many aspects. He is doing/has done the same to other runners - Aidan Puffer, Judson Greer, the Ping's, all current HS runners that are doing incredibly well for themselves.
His career is already lasting longer than other talented HS runners. German Fernandez quietly ended his career during college. Cain also skipped college, got the "high intensity" training that everyone here is recommending Hunter, and just broke down. I'd rather have Hunter in the hands of Tinman, knowing he is going to keep him healthy, allow him to develop long-term, run and race up to his genetic limits, than put him under some crazy program that might lead to 1 or 2 short-term results, but ends up destroying his body and career.
German Fernandez did not quietly end his career during college. He ran professionally for several years. He ran 3:34 after he graduated, which is faster than what Hunter ran.
Hunter is clearly very talented. I posted this on another thread and didn’t get a good answer so I’m asking again: why do people think that Tinman is a bad coach?
His training philosophy seems similar to what all the other top coaches are doing. Hunter’s mileage is low. Some people argue he should be doing more. Colleen Quigley and Woody Kincaid are also very injury prone and also run relatively low mileage. So does Justyn Knight and many of the Bosshard athletes.
TME Hater wrote:
German Fernandez did not quietly end his career during college. He ran professionally for several years. He ran 3:34 after he graduated, which is faster than what Hunter ran.
Hunter is clearly very talented. I posted this on another thread and didn’t get a good answer so I’m asking again: why do people think that Tinman is a bad coach?
His training philosophy seems similar to what all the other top coaches are doing. Hunter’s mileage is low. Some people argue he should be doing more. Colleen Quigley and Woody Kincaid are also very injury prone and also run relatively low mileage. So does Justyn Knight and many of the Bosshard athletes.
True, but my point was that he joined the BTC and did not become a superstar. He was arguably even better than Hunter in HS, and most of his PR's are still from when he was 18-19 years old. So I find it hard to believe that if Hunter joined another team like BTC he would suddenly be a lot faster.
People think that Tinman is a bad coach because he does things in his own way.
- many people, coaches and runners, think it's necessary to sprint all-out to reach one's potential in the mile or 3k. Tinman does not believe in all-out hill sprints or flat sprints, and caps his speedwork to ~400m pace
- coaches like Magness and Marcus critisized him for his "multi-layered workouts" - where he has stamina work, like threshold and CV in the beginning and then fast 30s hills or 200s at mile/800 pace at the end. They say "you can't recruit all muscle fibers when tired, fast reps should be in the beginning, the neuromuscular stimulus isn't ideal". They aren't wrong, but they don't get the point what Tinman wants to achieve - to run fast and relaxed when already under high fatigue, like at the end of a race.
- he is kinda known for "training sensibly" in all aspects - lower mileage, only two hard sessions a week, very easy long runs. People somehow think that this isn't enough to make a US champion or Olympic champion, they want to see high mileage, pushing to (and beyond) the limits, crazy long runs, and big sessions like 20x200 in 26 or 20x400 in 59.
- some people admit that Tinman is knowledgeable about physiology and the right training, but criticize him in other aspects as a coach - like cheering up runners, motivating a team, coaching women, in other words - his "social skills". This is often cited as #1 reason why he was never able to get a coaching position in a decent college team.
So yes, Tinman is doing many things HIS own way, but it also has WORKED many times over and over again. Many of the top HS runners setting international age-graded records trained under his tutelage. He managed to keep lots of "customers" injury free and allow them to PR. Even in his pro runners (TME), every single runner PR'ed soon after working with him. They have limited resources compared to NOP/BTC etc., but are training within their means and limits and seem to be making big improvements still.
tldr: Tinman is actually a better coach than what people think he is.
tinman sucks wrote:
It seems like he could run so much faster with just a little more mileage and actual workouts.
I don`t say he surely would run faster with me as coach , but I guess it had been a great chance.
If he stagnate for some years to come I think he should take the chance to see what my system can do for him. One of my top runners I have coached 5 years without injuries.
Bosshard?? Wow, why not just throw Hudson and Jones into the mix since you're throwing darts at a wall.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
TME Hater wrote:
German Fernandez did not quietly end his career during college. He ran professionally for several years. He ran 3:34 after he graduated, which is faster than what Hunter ran.
Hunter is clearly very talented. I posted this on another thread and didn’t get a good answer so I’m asking again: why do people think that Tinman is a bad coach?
His training philosophy seems similar to what all the other top coaches are doing. Hunter’s mileage is low. Some people argue he should be doing more. Colleen Quigley and Woody Kincaid are also very injury prone and also run relatively low mileage. So does Justyn Knight and many of the Bosshard athletes.
True, but my point was that he joined the BTC and did not become a superstar. He was arguably even better than Hunter in HS, and most of his PR's are still from when he was 18-19 years old. So I find it hard to believe that if Hunter joined another team like BTC he would suddenly be a lot faster.
People think that Tinman is a bad coach because he does things in his own way.
- many people, coaches and runners, think it's necessary to sprint all-out to reach one's potential in the mile or 3k. Tinman does not believe in all-out hill sprints or flat sprints, and caps his speedwork to ~400m pace
- coaches like Magness and Marcus critisized him for his "multi-layered workouts" - where he has stamina work, like threshold and CV in the beginning and then fast 30s hills or 200s at mile/800 pace at the end. They say "you can't recruit all muscle fibers when tired, fast reps should be in the beginning, the neuromuscular stimulus isn't ideal". They aren't wrong, but they don't get the point what Tinman wants to achieve - to run fast and relaxed when already under high fatigue, like at the end of a race.
- he is kinda known for "training sensibly" in all aspects - lower mileage, only two hard sessions a week, very easy long runs. People somehow think that this isn't enough to make a US champion or Olympic champion, they want to see high mileage, pushing to (and beyond) the limits, crazy long runs, and big sessions like 20x200 in 26 or 20x400 in 59.
- some people admit that Tinman is knowledgeable about physiology and the right training, but criticize him in other aspects as a coach - like cheering up runners, motivating a team, coaching women, in other words - his "social skills". This is often cited as #1 reason why he was never able to get a coaching position in a decent college team.
So yes, Tinman is doing many things HIS own way, but it also has WORKED many times over and over again. Many of the top HS runners setting international age-graded records trained under his tutelage. He managed to keep lots of "customers" injury free and allow them to PR. Even in his pro runners (TME), every single runner PR'ed soon after working with him. They have limited resources compared to NOP/BTC etc., but are training within their means and limits and seem to be making big improvements still.
tldr: Tinman is actually a better coach than what people think he is.
I've read and heard the opposite from runners of different levels who hired him.
Too fast paces in the workouts and injury or overtraining as a consequence. If I would grad him from A- C coaching ability I would say B .
B-coach wrote:
I've read and heard the opposite from runners of different levels who hired him.
Too fast paces in the workouts and injury or overtraining as a consequence. If I would grad him from A- C coaching ability I would say B .
Interesting, can you give some examples? His main workouts, consist of 3 paces:
1) CV intervals - usually 1000m or 3 minute intervals at 10k pace. 10k pace is not that fast!
2) Threshold - even slower than CV - often as mile repeats. Not that fast! Can be sustained for 60 minutes straight in a race.
3) Tinman Tempo - that's ~MP, or a pace someone can hold for 2-3 hours in a race - again, that's quite slow, and slower than typical tempos which other coaches/programs prescribe at "threshold" pace.
Meanwhile, you have other coaches prescribing long, hard intervals at VO2MAX pace (3k, or 5k depending on definition), or typical sessions like 10x400 at mile with just one minute rest. But I'm looking forward to the real-life examples of your the runners you heard from who got injured and overtrained while being coached by him for $200/month.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
B-coach wrote:
I've read and heard the opposite from runners of different levels who hired him.
Too fast paces in the workouts and injury or overtraining as a consequence. If I would grad him from A- C coaching ability I would say B .
Interesting, can you give some examples?
You?
Drew is 22 years old. That means he ran 13:21 and qualified for worlds at the same age as a college senior. He's also run 3:35 and 7:39. What more can you ask of a young talent? He's doing extremely well under Tinman.
Should have gone with Nike and Salazar, but Salazar only picks biomechanical freaks like Rupp, Brazier, Kejelcha, Hassan, Hasay, Centrowitz... Hunter has a gimp in his giddy-up... which is why he is with adidas.