Whoa. Police murder victim George Floyd tested positive for Coronavirus (not troll)

Rocket Mann wrote:

Murder means an intention to kill, and I think there is a strong argument to be made that he officer didn't mean to kill Floyd.

That being said, I think he was also charged for manslaughter, which does not mean there was an intention to kill, so he could still be found guilty.

I'm not certain how it works in all US states, but in most countries you don't have to have intent to kill to get a murder charge.

It is enough to prove intention to harm and the result be the death of a person.

In a lot of places manslaughter does not involve the intent to harm. If you killed a person by not paying attention whilst operating heavy machinery for example.

That's not my understanding, but I'm not a lawyer or anything.

Looking it up though, it seems like you might be right. SevensLegal says second degree murder (which is what the cop has been charged with I think) is when a person intentionally meant to kill another person but it was not planned and was the result of conduct involving a conscious disregard for human life.

I feel like there's a case to be made that the cop was just trying to subdue Floyd and didn't realize he was going to kill him, but I think I also assume the best in people even when I shouldn't.

Either way, I do think he should be charged, and I don't have the legal expertise to say which one is right, so it's probably for the best he was charged with both.

In Minnesota, for 2nd degree murder you have to either prove intent but no premeditation, or the commission of another felony. https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

In that case I don't see the 2nd degree charges sticking.

They must have a 3rd degree in Minnesota then to distinguish from manslaughter.

It looks like it's gonna be that second part of the second one I think. I just think it might be hard to prove that the cop was intending to kill Floyd.

Rocket Mann wrote:

It looks like it's gonna be that second part of the second one I think. I just think it might be hard to prove that the cop was intending to kill Floyd.

Why else would you be cutting off the blood supply to the brain of an unconscious man besides trying to kill him? I hope nobody is surprised that you can kill someone by chocking them.

Again, which letsrunners, with their assumed 'better-than-everyone-else-because-I-run' health thinks they would survive the hold Floyd was in?

Cuffed behind back (restricts breathing), face down (restricts breathing) two blokes sat on your back (directly on the lungs, restricts breathing) and then one executioner pushing his 80kg+ bodyweight through his knee into your jugular.

Who here thinks they would survive? Seriously.

I know I'd die.

ex-runner wrote:

Again, which letsrunners, with their assumed 'better-than-everyone-else-because-I-run' health thinks they would survive the hold Floyd was in?

Cuffed behind back (restricts breathing), face down (restricts breathing) two blokes sat on your back (directly on the lungs, restricts breathing) and then one executioner pushing his 80kg+ bodyweight through his knee into your jugular.

Who here thinks they would survive? Seriously.

I know I'd die.

You really don't believe he was pushing his entire body weight on GF for 8:46 before he finally killed him? I would think that would have been about 30 seconds.

ex-runner wrote:

Again, which letsrunners, with their assumed 'better-than-everyone-else-because-I-run' health thinks they would survive the hold Floyd was in?

Cuffed behind back (restricts breathing), face down (restricts breathing) two blokes sat on your back (directly on the lungs, restricts breathing) and then one executioner pushing his 80kg+ bodyweight through his knee into your jugular.

Who here thinks they would survive? Seriously.

I know I'd die.

Like the other guy said, he never used full weight and only just enough to keep his head somewhat still (but he was still able to move around). The one small guy (Kueng) on his body barely mattered. Humans can take a lot of pressure in that position, 400+ PSI. Even just 50 lbs pressure for a short time would have shown considerable neck damage in the autopsy. But there was nothing damaged.

The position is a NON-LETHAL force option that was commonly applied. Far more likely causes of death are his breathing problems that he already had before (he even screamed "I have the COVID!" while on ground) and the drug overdose. The shop clerk calling the police already said "extremely drunk guy on drugs, not being himself". He was on meth, and 11mg of fentanly (2mg are considered lethal). These drugs would surely kill most of us. The restraint was to protect him and relax him/calm him down before EMT arrives.

If there is anything to blame, it's Chauvin's pride. He would never let a rookie officer who is on his 4th day in the streets tell him what to do with his 19-years experience. Lane suggested him twice to turn the body around and switch position, but he always said "no, we wait for the medics".

If Covid didn't matter at all, why did Floyd mention it while he was on ground, unable to breathe and dying? Why did he get tested for it in April? He must have had some symptoms and then decide to get tested. Not hard to get Covid when you are a bouncer in one of the biggest night clubs in Minneapolis. But we don't know what role the virus played in his death, what we do know is he struggled to breathe BEFORE being on the ground and he told it to the officers. He did anything he could while dying and trying to hang on, but Chauvin's pride and deciding to never let go are ultimately what killed him (but not because he wanted to murder him, rather he didn't want to give in to the crowd and the rookie officers and was sure that he would be fine).

You are right. The restraint looked very protective and non-lethal.

Another death for coronavirus.

ex-runner wrote:

You are right. The restraint looked very protective and non-lethal.

Another death for coronavirus.

Have you read the Minneapolis police policy? Direct quote:

5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)

DEFINITIONS I.

Choke Hold: Deadly force option. Defined as applying direct pressure on a person’s trachea or airway (front of the neck), blocking or obstructing the airway (04/16/12)

Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)

Conscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)

Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)

PROCEDURES/REGULATIONS II.

A. The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting. (04/16/12)

B. The Unconscious Neck Restraint shall only be applied in the following circumstances: (04/16/12)

1. On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression, or;

2. For life saving purposes, or;

3. On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective.

C. Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)

D. After Care Guidelines (04/16/12)

1. After a neck restraint or choke hold has been used on a subject, sworn MPD employees shall keep them under close observation until they are released to medical or other law enforcement personnel.

2. An officer who has used a neck restraint or choke hold shall inform individuals accepting custody of the subject, that the technique was used on the subject

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You can argue about the policy and training that existed at the time of the incident being wrong (and it was actually changed just today, Minneapolis removed neck restraints as allowed techniques) but it was what Chauvin learned to do and executed according to the law. He was literally following protocol. He used the neck restraint, kept him under close observation, until he was released to medical personnel. I don't see anything in the policy that states the neck restraint should only be used on black subjects, nor that it should be released at some point.

If the technique would commonly result into death, why was it used over 200+ times in recent years (44 times as unconscious move) without deaths? My personal opinion is, yes it is extremely dangerous and under certain circumstances (like subject being under drugs, having COVID, or other health problems) will lead to death. But I see the issue at the top, the Chief of Police who is responsible for the policy and techniques officers are using and, ultimately the major of the city who is the superior of the Chief of Police.

Nice find!

What is disappointing is the lack of acknowledgement that this is a commonly used procedure that has NOT resulted in death. It seems in an attempt to show some empathy towards GF, this has backfired and the masses have gone bonkers when the truth is once again, something people are unwilling to deal with and the blame game continues.

Good information. Unsure how police are expected to arrest violent and vicious suspects who are aggressively resisting without using force . Police are put in impossible situations sometimes. Most police have saved lives. Very few have taken a life. Appears that chauvin followed protocol. Putting pressure on back of neck does not shut off airway. Airway is in front of neck. Appears these had to deal with a tough situation. There are few people that will risk their lives to save yours. Police do risk their lives to save others others many times. They need more support. Not cheap shots by people who know nothing about what it is like to be a cop.

cltlgga wrote:

Good information. Unsure how police are expected to arrest violent and vicious suspects who are aggressively resisting without using force . Police are put in impossible situations sometimes. Most police have saved lives. Very few have taken a life. Appears that chauvin followed protocol. Putting pressure on back of neck does not shut off airway. Airway is in front of neck. Appears these had to deal with a tough situation. There are few people that will risk their lives to save yours. Police do risk their lives to save others others many times. They need more support. Not cheap shots by people who know nothing about what it is like to be a cop.

+1000!

He lost his airway because of the fentanyl. If the police union gets any anesthesiologist to testify on the cops behalf, they will confirm that with the concentration of fentanyl he had in his system, his ability to maintain an adequate airway would have been severely limited. The knee to the back of his neck didn't help, but blaming his death entirely on the cop is like blaming coronavirus for killing a 90+ year old with diabetes and high blood pressure.

comedyrelieve wrote:

He lost his airway because of the fentanyl. If the police union gets any anesthesiologist to testify on the cops behalf, they will confirm that with the concentration of fentanyl he had in his system, his ability to maintain an adequate airway would have been severely limited. The knee to the back of his neck didn't help, but blaming his death entirely on the cop is like claiming coronavirus for killing a 90+ year old with diabetes and high blood pressure.

But they are blaming coronavirus for killing the elderly that a have zillion comorbidities and one foot in the grave already. Lol.

Catch it with the Kodak Disc wrote:

cltlgga wrote:

Good information. Unsure how police are expected to arrest violent and vicious suspects who are aggressively resisting without using force . Police are put in impossible situations sometimes. Most police have saved lives. Very few have taken a life. Appears that chauvin followed protocol. Putting pressure on back of neck does not shut off airway. Airway is in front of neck. Appears these had to deal with a tough situation. There are few people that will risk their lives to save yours. Police do risk their lives to save others others many times. They need more support. Not cheap shots by people who know nothing about what it is like to be a cop.

+1000!

Obviously, it is not necessary to cut off the airways in order to cause someone to die by pressure to the neck or even back. Any martial arts person knows this.

It is recognised in police forces in other countries that in a prone position with handcuffs behind the back it is difficult for a suspect to breathe. To sit on them and apply pressure to the neck it is incredibly difficult to get oxygenated blood to the brain.

You can see by the way his eyes start bulging that his venous return to the body has been disrupted.

The cop will have to explain why

a) felt the unconscious neck restraint was necessary, that may be more difficult to prove based on the video evidence showing the suspect had stopped resisting/asked to get up.

b) he applied pressure for 3 minutes after the suspect was unconscious.

It may well get proved that Chauvin did not intend to kill the suspect but that he was impatient and decided to knock him out to save everyone time rather than allow the suspect the chance to resist again. I guess that's up to the jury. Could be manslaughter

Why do you think it was the knee on neck that killed him? Let's say the drugs didn't matter. How do you know it was the knee doing light pressure on the side of the neck causing the death, and not Kueng, the officer who sat with his FULL weight on his back/stomach?

Look at the death of Tony Timpa. He died the same way/in the same position, but from the weight on his back.

To your points:

a) It is part of the (former) Minneapolis police enforcement rules. He likely acted the way he was supposed to in this situation. The move was used 244 times since 2015 in Minneapolis, and 44 times the victim was knocked out. The police department taught the move to Chauvin (and other officers, you really won't believe that he was responsible for all 244 cases?) and he used it because he was trained to use it. Also, we still don't know what happened in the 5-6 minutes from Floyd arriving to the police car, to being dragged out and put in the restraint. What words were exchanged? How did Floyd manage to prevent not just one, not two, but THREE cops from locking him up in the back row of a police car for over 5 minutes? How strong can a handcuffed man be?

b) You don't know how much pressure Chauvin used at any point. Maybe after Floyd stopped moving and talking, he did not actively pressure, just kept the knee in place in case he starts trying to get up again.

Since this neck restraint was extremely commonly used in Minneapolis (244 times since 2015), it will be hard to argue why it only managed to kill Floyd and not the other criminals. Was Floyd smaller/more fragile than the average criminal? Was he a lot stronger than average, and kept struggling/trying to get out of it which caused his HR to spike and die? Were the other criminals not on the 5x lethal dose of fentanyl and meth?

I don't think you can blame any of the cops for doing what they were trained to do, and have done many times in the past. Hundreds of other cops must have used the same technique, and no one ever questioned it. What you do have is a civil case against the Chief of Police/police department of Minneapolis, and maybe even the major since he is ultimately responsible of what happens in this city.