Replies in bold above.
Replies in bold above.
KudzuRunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
[quote]Ward Cleaver wrote:
[quote]KudzuRunner wrote:
[quote]Ward Cleaver wrote:
[quote]KudzuRunner wrote:
Travis got in way over his head, though, and there is, as far as I know, zero evidence that Arbery 1) stole anything from the site;
Apparently there is footage of him removing items from his pocket and dropping them while running away from the construction site.
I'm unfamiliar with this claim, Ward. Please offer a link to a story that evidences this and/or a time cue in a video or video commentary that invokes this "fact." This is the first I've heard of it, but it seems relevant--although it may NOT be relevant, even if true, if it can't be proved that the McMichaels personally witnessed that (claimed) action by Arbery. I'm skeptical but willing to listen.
I believe I heard it on one of the videos I posted that apparently can't be taken seriously because of the list of usual excuses. If I come across it, or something similar, I'll share it.
If I recall correctly it may be on the video relating to the first 2/23 911 call and many also find it interesting that only seven seconds of that video surveillance inside the home under construction is being shown, and if he truly was going in for water and had done that before, why the pause to look around?
I agree with you that there's a slippage between the language you've quoted and what we actually see on the video, although I don't think there's quite as much slippage as you think there is.
But what you're talking about is actually the opposite of what I've requested. I'm asking what facts YOU see, or hear, that don't agree with YOUR interpretation of what happened.
I'm asking you what you see as the weakest point in your own take on the case. My claim is that very few people--including you, perhaps--are willing to voice that out loud.
And yet the strongest legal arguments, and the most accurate human-side explanations of what actually happened can only come, I would argue, from those who are willing to do what I ask.
Call it the Rashomon principle. Judgmentalism, an insistence on quickly deciding what one thinks, and must think, is the enemy of justice. Justice is blind, or supposed to be, and justice is slow, deliberate, and willing to entertain counternarratives.
Small correction: they have been indicted, but they have not been convicted - yet. Also, Georgia does not have 1st and 2nd degree murder- it is just murder, with different factual requirements to satisfy a charge.
You might want to bear in mind that an intentional killing need not be planned or premeditated; it can be a split-second decision. The question in this trial will be whether Travis McMichaels intended to pull the trigger in his struggle with Arbery or whether it was an accident. If he chose to pull the trigger it was an intentional act and hence murder. His only defence might then be self defence.
Replies in bold above. Sorry if I missed the mark on what you are asking. I'm willing to answer again if what I posted is not what you are looking for, just clarify, or give me an example of what you mean.
Thanks for the positive conversation!
I looked it up, and in Georgia there is 1st degree murder which they call "Malice" murder, felony murder and 2nd degree murder.
The felony murder charge calls for life imprisonment and it seems open and shut, so I don't know how much meaning an analysis of whose fault it was that the gun went off.
https://www.blacklawoffices.com/murder-in-georgiaI think you may be confusing truth with justice. Truth can call for looking at an issue from different perspectives; justice, according to law, requires only that the specific ingredients of a charge are proven beyond reasonable doubt. It is an adversarial process, where the onus of proof falls on the prosecution and the defence presents arguments and evidence that will weaken the prosecutorial case. Neither side seeks to "entertain counter-narratives"; the truth - such as it is according to law - emerges from the contest between prosecution and defense. The Court - typically the jury in a criminal matter - comes to a verdict on whether the prosecution has discharged its onus of proof based on an assessment of the evidence before it.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Small correction: they have been indicted, but they have not been convicted - yet. Also, Georgia does not have 1st and 2nd degree murder- it is just murder, with different factual requirements to satisfy a charge.
You might want to bear in mind that an intentional killing need not be planned or premeditated; it can be a split-second decision. The question in this trial will be whether Travis McMichaels intended to pull the trigger in his struggle with Arbery or whether it was an accident. If he chose to pull the trigger it was an intentional act and hence murder. His only defence might then be self defence.
If either McMichael actually wanted to kill AA why wouldn't they just shoot him from behind when chasing him in their truck or when he jogged right up to him while they waited at their truck. Not sure how anyone wouldn't think TM would have self dense rights if someone charged at him and attempted to take his firearm?
Have you ever thought what may have happened if AA actually got the gun away from TM? Do you think he would have shot one, two, or three men? Or, asked them to all take a seat and attempt a Citizens Arrest?
More legal speak that I will allow the experts to debate about.
"Georgia does not classify murder as first-degree ("cold-blooded" killings) and second- degree (reckless disregard for human life). In Georgia, any killing with malice or a killing without provocation is murder."
https://statelaws.findlaw.com/georgia-law/georgia-murder-laws.htmlWe are probably arguing at cross-purposes here. The McMichaels have both been charged with murder; I have seen it reported that Bryan has been charged with felony murder. As you correctly understand, a felony murder is committed as part of an unlawful act - like a robbery (or an unlawful citizens arrest) - and does not require intent. We can see how that charge would apply to Bryan, who used his vehicle to try to apprehend Arbery - which gave rise to an additional charge of false imprisonment. I also agree, that at the least the McMichaels could also likely be convicted of felony murder.
However, the fact they have been charged with murder per se allows the prosecution to make a case that the killing was also committed with "malice aforethought" or without provocation. The difference is that this part of the charge must show intent or lack of provocation. My point about the struggle for the gun and Travis Michael's shooting Arbery is that if it was not an accident he thereby intended to kill Arbery and without provocation. I would expect the prosecution to argue that. It should be borne in mind that Georgia also has the death penalty for murder.
You misunderstand. You think that the intent to commit murder must be at a predetermined time. It does not. The intent can exist at any point that a decision is made to kill - which, as I have said, can be a sudden decision in the moment.
If the facts at trial suggest Arbery had every reason to fear for his life, at any point, then he was justified in doing what he could to protect himself, including taking the gun off Travis Michaels. There is no self defence argument open to Michaels unless it is clear from the evidence that his own life was unmistakeably threatened. Arbery had not obtained the gun; it is far harder for Michaels to argue his life was threatened when the evidence suggest the greater threat was to the unarmed man.
However, this argument could be superseded by the fact that the killing likely occurred as a result of a felony, which was an unlawful citizens arrest and false imprisonment. That does not require intent to kill. The three accused could well be convicted on that basis.
Nice to see a thread with civil debate not derailed by the trolls.
Does the prosecution have to choose between felony murder and murder with intent, or can they argue for both at the same time, hoping that either sticks?
I believe there is a 100% chance the McMichaels will be convicted of felony murder. I don't think they can expand those charges during the trial and go for the death penalty for Travis. They have also been charged with aggravated assault and I don't know how that fits in.
I believe it was self-defense in that Travis knew would be in for a major ass kicking if he didn't shoot Arbery.
I have found myself drawn into two different purposes in this discussion. One is to try to help clarify the legal issues that will arise in this case. The other is to respond to what have appeared to be expressions of prejudice in repeated and concerted attempts to blame Arbery for his own death - and often with false information. This case has become a cause celebre because, among other things, it is fraught with racial issues; it is unsurprising that this is reflected in the discourse.
Your use of the term "bad facts" is not one I would generally employ, but from how you have used it I take it to mean an acknowledgement of arguments that run counter to a preferred narrative.
I have generally argued the prosecution case here - firstly, because that case will be argued in the court, and, secondly, because I have read numerous comments that have sought to defend or justify the McMichaels - and often on specious grounds. I have also tried to indicate how the defense may try to play it out.
Setting that aside then, I consider the McMichaels' actions began with errors of judgment, that as citizens but not law enforcement officials they wrongly considered they had grounds to arrest Arbery, that their actions went beyond what a citizens arrest should have required, that they should not have used firearms, and should not have provoked a confrontation. In other words, it was a matter for official law enforcement and not vigilante action. The outcome proves that. Yet they probably thought they were doing the right thing.
On the face of it, their actions do not establish that it was a hate crime, as is also being argued. They probably didn't intend to kill Arbery until he resisted them. Yet the attitude they brought to these tragic events is key to why this case has shocked so many. I think they felt entitled to do what they did, and in their actions they reflected much of what has occurred in the imbalance in the power relationship between white and black in American history. I think it is so engrained in the culture that people like the McMichaels wouldn't know they possessed such attitudes; it is often unconscious and may simply seem "normal" to them. That is what I find most disturbing. I also see resonances of that attitude here.
So what are the "bad facts" that I am conceding? That the McMichaels be not demonised as racist monsters but people acting through poor judgement and out of turn, and according to motivations they are unlikely to be fully aware of. They may represent many like them in society. Inadequate, entitled and threatened - particularly by the stereotype of the black "criminal".
I have questioned your interpretation of the meaning of "lynching" and I am not saying I think you are wrong but rather that the term has a metaphorical and symbolic meaning as well as literal meaning, in the sense that it can describe acts arising out of the white and black imbalance in power that result in the summary and brutal destruction of a black person.
As for Arbery, I find his technical trespass to be immaterial to this case, and the efforts to blame him, based on mistakes he had committed previously in his short life, to not only be irrelevant in law but repugnant in the way such arguments attempt to diminish the wrong done to him.
I would agree with you that ideological rhetoric and stereotyping are not conducive to understanding what has happened in this case. The law may be clear, the facts indicative though yet to be established but the truth is much more complex and we may never get to the bottom of that. We have to be able to see into the hearts of men and not just their intentions and their actions. We need understand the society and culture they come from. That also means trying to understand ourselves.
If the charge is murder they can argue whichever they consider the evidence supports. It may include both elements. In the instance of co-accused Bryan I have read the charge against him relates to felony murder only.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
pavel wrote:
Nice to see a thread with civil debate not derailed by the trolls.
Does the prosecution have to choose between felony murder and murder with intent, or can they argue for both at the same time, hoping that either sticks?
I believe there is a 100% chance the McMichaels will be convicted of felony murder. I don't think they can expand those charges during the trial and go for the death penalty for Travis. They have also been charged with aggravated assault and I don't know how that fits in.
I believe it was self-defense in that Travis knew would be in for a major ass kicking if he didn't shoot Arbery.
Aggravated assault, a felony in Georgia, is an assault that is committed:
- with the intent to rob, rape or murder
- with a deadly weapon or any object that can be or is used in a manner that results in serious bodily injury or strangulation, or
- by discharging a firearm from a vehicle.
The murder charges against the McMichaels allows for the prosecution to argue that it was murder with intent as well as felony murder. Also, if they are convicted of aggravated assault that would mean a conviction for felony murder.
Great summation, thanks.
Should be pinned.
Well, amen. I think I agree with pretty much everything you say.
I also find myself looking back to a much earlier comment by SDSU Aztec, one that I also made at some point in this endless thread: the question of whether Arbery might not have been "casing the joint," as some here have been insisting, but rather looking around at the unfinished interior with the eyes of a budding electrician. In a story posted yesterday in Yahoo news, this point is implied:
"He had enrolled at South Georgia Technical College, preparing to become an electrician, just like his uncles."
https://news.yahoo.com/final-days-ahmaud-arberys-life-144012189.htmlI want to hear more about this. There are various reasons, after all, why somebody jogging by a construction site might pause and take a couple of minutes to walk inside and just look around. But on the face of it, one of the very best reasons to behave that way would be....that you're preparing to become an electrician and you know that your future will have you working in spaces that look like this. You're about to become an apprentice electrician and you want to see what the journeymen and master electricians are doing.
This would be a very good moment--and here I'll side with armstronglivs--to remember the power that stereotypes carry, so that some people find it almost impossible to honestly consider the scenario I've just outlined. But there was discussion here early on about the--well, the weirdness, the seeming kookiness, of Arbery on that security footage just.....looking around. It's neither weird nor kooky if you allow for this most obvious possibility: that he WAS, in fact, just looking around, with the eyes of somebody not intent on stealing stuff, but intent on gaining some useful knowledge from a particular sort of construction scene.
Then why did he run? That question, too, will need to be answered.
I should clarify: in the post just above, the long post that I'm agreeing with is by armstronglivs. He was responding to a comment of mine. My cutting/pasting/excerpting skills are lacking.
KudzuRunner wrote:
. . . remember the power that stereotypes carry, so that some people find it almost impossible to honestly consider the scenario I've just outlined. . . .
Then why did he run? That question, too, will need to be answered.
One hypothesis is that Arbery is well aware of how people will judge him if he's seen looking around a construction site.
Keep in mind also that he was allegedly out for a run, so resuming doing so isn't obviously terribly significant.