SEMENYA jogs 800m in 1:55

RossTucker wrote:

I really don't understand the Apartheid reference - you talk about the oppression of women, and then you launch into a tirade about how I'm defending Semenya, when actually, I'm agreeing with your end conclusion that she should not compete in women's events.

This is what you say, but then:

Final point, Semenya will run the 400 and 800 in Rio, and she will win both. It will cause a Sh!Tstorom of note, and I'm South African, so that will be a lot of fun (said nobody ever) and arguments. Besides, I thin kit's a really interesting subject.

We see where your real interest is.

You seem to have missed that, but accuse me of an apartheid concept. Do you appreciate that apartheid literally means exclusion, which is what you (and I, though more respectfully) are arguing for?

Apartheid: a former social system in South Africa in which black people and people from other racial groups did not have the same political and economic rights as white people and were forced to live separately from white people

Your position threatens the political and economic rights of all women, particularly in regard to their athletic endeavors.

RossTucker wrote:

if I am typing senseless red herrings, then I suspect I know why we disagree.

At least I'm glad this is obvious.

idiotusIrrationalis wrote:

El Wrongo conclusionario wrote:

Wrong, he's a male.

Idiot, use a good dictionary. Look up "gender". Look up "sex". Look up "intersex". She identifies as a female, so she her gender is female. Biologically, her sex is neither male nor female. It is intersex.

Idiot, she has some physical, anatomic and hormonal issues that are atypical that can be classified according to chromosomal and testosterone levels.

How Semenya or any of us 'identifies' is no more material than whether I claim to be myself, Napoleon or Allah.

RossTucker wrote:

Finally, I think if you actually read, you will find that I am standing up for real women - Semenya and other intersex athletes should have an upper limit for testosterone. I've only been saying that for 7 years, you know. How's your contribution coming on?

You have no idea of the contributions I've made to women's athletes, for at least the last 40 plus years, but suffice it to say, much more than yours. For your part, you've been part of prolonging this issue for 7 more years. How's that working for women's athletics exactly?

The answer to this is that you want intersex athletes to compete in women's events. You are completely in the camp of intersex athletes, and you don't give a hoot what happens to women and women's athletics.

RossTucker wrote:

I apologise if I've posted senseless red herrings that have obscured my opinion that Semenya should not be competing in women's events without some limit on testosterone.

You're not for women's athletics at all.

Rather you keep pushing to keep men (intersex, whatever) in women's events.

*crux

It isn't that difficult:

Show some respect to Semenya, and refer to her as her.

Show some respect to women's sports, and don't allow Semenya to compete in the women's category.

Yes, seriously wrote:

markboen wrote:

I am now leaning toward advocating that the biologically disadvantaged, e.g., hermaphrodites, transgenders, be allowed to participate in the Special Olympics and other Special Olympic events, and not against biological females. They can enjoy racing in their own specific division.

That's what the Special Olympics is for.

The Special Olympics are for mentally retarded adults. Are you advocating somebody with a normal IQ competing in that category? Please this is getting idiotic.

The cruz of the matter wrote:

RossTucker wrote:

I apologise if I've posted senseless red herrings that have obscured my opinion that Semenya should not be competing in women's events without some limit on testosterone.

You're not for women's athletics at all.

Rather you keep pushing to keep men (intersex, whatever) in women's events.

Bwah? Not how I'm reading his posts at all. He's arguing that she should NOT be allowed to compete in women's events, given her current status.

And he's also drawing a distinction between gender (which is self-identified) and sex (which is biology/physiology). And that's a huge distinction. Because when you conflate the two, then you make this into a gender identity rights issue. Which it's not. This is about fairness in sport.

All you stupid people don't even realize that she was told not to make winning look so easy.

She will make a mockery of womens distance running at the Olympics.

Fair enough. Just figured calling a human being an "it" was enough to delete a post and make clear grounds for discussion.

I'm glad Ross Tucker came along on this thread with some actual logic and science, but that's tough for the ignorant to handle.

insightful analysis and response from Tucker.

May be worth it for the other women in Rio (besides the Big 3 hyperandrogenic individuals) to ignore them and run their own race in hopes that the hyperandrogenic athletes are later DQed when CAS come to their senses. 4th place may later be awarded a gold medal.

This is a summary of things that Ross Tucker has said, and you can read his posts to verify.

He stated his position is that he's standing up for real women.

He said Semenya and other intersex males should not compete in women's events.

However he continually states that Semenya and other intersex males should have an upper limit for testosterone to compete in women's events. He thinks it's okay for intersex males to keep competing in women's events until any upper limit is set, and he admits he's been saying the same thing for 7 years.

This he is not standing up for real women at all. He is standing up for intersex males competing in women's events, with or without limits to testosterone levels, and thus he does not care what happens to real women and real women's events.

Brojos you should look at this guy and what he is trying to do to athletics, and not put his post as the quote of the day. Do you really want his plan to work, for intersex males to take over women's athletics? I think not. Please realize what he is trying to do, and help take some action to put a stop to the nonsense.

Intersex males are disrespecting women all over the world by disregarding and desecrating their right to compete in women's events with other real women.

The guise of calling intersex males women is part of their plan to take part in women's events and desecrate their use by real women. Please do not give any credibility to intersex males by calling them she, her, female or women, because they are not. They are intersex males.

Please do show your respect for real women, by standing up for real women, and helping to prevent their events from desecration by intersex males.

In what sense? If you want to claim that gender is a cultural designation, Semenya certainly does not act like someone identifying female. As for whether Semenya is xy or xxy or what, we do not know. But Semenya very much looks like someone who would fit far better in a men's race, just not at the elite level. Semenya looks nothing like the other 800m women competitors, except for the other apparent intersex athletes. And we can see that the absence of testosterone suppressors has made a world of difference in Semenya's performance. So much for the idiotic notion that natural testosterone doesn't have performance-enhancing effects. Semenya was running over 2 most of the time with the hormonal treatment, except at some championships where Semenya seems to have cut down on the treatment substantially.

I doth protest! wrote:

The Special Olympics are for mentally retarded adults. Are you advocating somebody with a normal IQ competing in that category? Please this is getting idiotic.

Special Olympics welcomes all athletes with intellectual disabilities.

Paralympics welcomes athletes from six main disability categories, one of these being a category that includes conditions that do not fall into the other categories.

Intersex males allege they are disabled from competing against males, and want to have their own events to compete. It is obviously not fair for intersex males to compete with real woman, as they are not women. However perhaps they could be included in the Paralympics with other intersex males. This would be a more acceptable solution then destroying the events of real women.

Robsyoungslawyer wrote:

May be worth it for the other women in Rio (besides the Big 3 hyperandrogenic individuals) to ignore them and run their own race in hopes that the hyperandrogenic athletes are later DQed when CAS come to their senses. 4th place may later be awarded a gold medal.

I have already decided to ignore the intersex males, to award the medals and all placings to real females. Let's keep identifying the intersex males so we can be sure to know who the real women competitors will be in each women's event.

Also it would be nice to see publication of the real women standings for each women's event.

TrackCoach wrote:

re: "How she passed muster on testosterone levels surprises me."

She didn't, with new CAS rule, testosterone level is no longer relevant. Prior to CAS, when Caster was forced to take hormone therapy, she was running 2:01 at best.

Oh?