Laura MF Muir 3:55

objectivity please wrote:

There are 1000s of other athletes who have run much faster over 1500m this season...

There are? Thousands? Really?

fbdgdgdfgd wrote:

Not at all, there are a few white Russians who are higher than her on the list.

There are precisely two "white Russians" above Muir on the all-time list. Tatiana Kazankina and Olga Dvirina, both of whom are from the doping free-for-all era of the 80s.

Other than those two, the only athletes to have run faster than Muir are:

1.Paula Ivan. This is what Paula Ivan did to the field at the notoriously doped '88 Olympics

2. Chinese athletes from the '93 and '97 Chinese national games. A doping free-for-all to match the Eastern Bloc 80s

3.Genzebe Dibaba

4. No one else.

I don't think any of you realise just quite how ridiculously fast she's run. Either through ignorance of the sport or some subconscious hope that its not so fast then it cant be in any way be that unusual.

My objectivity came from the 'on the circuit' reference. Ignore the 1000's onfmale high schoolers, collegians etc who have run faster this year.

I'm talking about the world scene, and I'm all ears if you can point me to anyone who's tougher

You seriously think there aren't dozens of athletes out there on the circuit who are just as tough as a British girl raised in first world comfort?

Look forward to hearing more about the unique Great British grit and determination triumphing over the lazy, doping foreigners.

I already said my piece on Muir upthread, but I want to make a few more points.

I would expect an African to be able to be the fastest clean runner. What we know about genetic and cultural advantage of the population is true (emphasis on "population"). On the other hand, it is much more complicated when you begin discussing social advantages of western athletes, and you redifine the population along those that can realistically have athletic ambitions. I don't expect a western male athlete to hold the clean WR. But for now, it seems more possible for western born women.

Second, the "is she clean or doping" question is not useful. We can see that the question is not helpful for the discussion and leaves very little in terms of thenstrength of someone's supicion.

I propose the 1-10 scale for suspicion. To calibrate, Dibaba is a 10 for me, given allegations against coach, teammates' doping bans, doping/anti-doping culture of Ethiopia and top level athletics, and her performance level in that context.

Muir was a 3, maybe a 4 after 2015. Everyone I don't "have anything" on is a 3. Her coach has no bad associations, no bad teammates, her performances hadn't been crazy, and nothing showing an anti-doping spirit either in rhetoric or practice, such as releasing blood scores (like a Robert Harting or Arne Gabius, who are a 2 or 3)

Muir is going faster now, but the IAAF tables are one tool tonshow its not that fast. Another is that Dibaba is 5(!) seconds faster. I'd put Muir at a 5, where I have Simpson, Rowburry, and most other top caliber athletes: the only thing "against" them is that they run fast and perform on the level or above the level of known dopers (Rowburry has bad coach associations etc. , but I don't think it is a team wide program).

(And to explain because people couldn't understand it in the other thread, 5 does not mean I am convinced they are doping. Don't reply saying I think everyone dopes. That's the reason for the scale: 5 is far from 10. But I'm certainly open to the possibilty she could be doping.)

Great run from Laura Muir in Paris. I wonder how SImpson sees the season now though - she has the medal and Laura doesn't despite crushing her in paced DL races.

I am also very excited by Andy Butchart's progress, not just his times but also how well he fared tactically at a level he has little experience of.

It was great to see Kejlecha back on form in the 3000m. He had a top class pacemaker, shame for Iguider he just missed sub 7.30 after looking good for it right until the end.

I want to follow up by asking posters to clarify their "doping/clean" posts with the same scale. There is a big difference between Paula Radcliffe "clean", Maggie Vessey "clean", Jordan Hasay "clean" and, say, 17-year-old 2:19 800m girl "clean".

You know full well the context in which I was using the word 'tough', and it has nothing to do with 1st world comfort. Nice try though

Jerry Maguire wrote:

" 3:55.22, a time which only the Chinese, Eastern Europeans and world record holder Genzebe Dibaba have bettered. With the exception of Dibaba, no one in the world had run this fast in 19 years. "

Nuff said...

So I've been at a wedding all weekend. I hope on here to see what people are saying. I just don't get the logic.

It appers that popple like the guy above are saying that Muir is 100% doped because she's run fast. My question to you then is why didn't the dope work in Rio?

Or is the argument that she didn't medal in Rio because she tried to run for gold and go with another person they also think is doped because she ran fast??

She's run 6 800s this year with 2 being in June/July. With the exception of 2015, 800 has been a staple event - 8 races in 2014 and 7 in 2013. The idea that she closed in sub-2 is absurd considering her racing history over 800.

The Scots are throwing up red flags. But nobody is testing positive and they're all tweeting #cleansport. It's a joke.

Metric Miler wrote:

Still a great run, equivalent to a 1:55 800m. All the talent is there right now, that's why Wambui and Niyonsaba can dominate the other girls.

What conversion table do you use?

rojo wrote:

Jerry Maguire wrote:

" 3:55.22, a time which only the Chinese, Eastern Europeans and world record holder Genzebe Dibaba have bettered. With the exception of Dibaba, no one in the world had run this fast in 19 years. "

Nuff said...

So I've been at a wedding all weekend. I hope on here to see what people are saying. I just don't get the logic.

It appers that popple like the guy above are saying that Muir is 100% doped because she's run fast. My question to you then is why didn't the dope work in Rio?

Or is the argument that she didn't medal in Rio because she tried to run for gold and go with another person they also think is doped because she ran fast??

Getting your peak right and being clean or not clean are two entirely separate concepts.

Total rubbish wrote:

The idea that she closed in sub-2 is absurd considering her racing history over 800.

It's much simpler than that. The idea is absurd because she didn't. No need to consider any history.

1:54.98 according to IAAF tables

athletics fan89 wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:

Still a great run, equivalent to a 1:55 800m. All the talent is there right now, that's why Wambui and Niyonsaba can dominate the other girls.

What conversion table do you use?

a lot of people seem to think that because shes scottish,and ran 4.07 in 2013,shes clean.i dont know if she is,or not,but if she were chinese,russian,moroccan,turkish, or ukrainian,and ran 4.07 in 2013,and then ran 3.55 in 2016,there would be an outcry,and a massive amount of condemnation.no turk has ever ran as fast as she has,no american either.russia has been banned from athletics,yet none of their heavily drugged superwomen have run as fast as laura muir,and no soviet has run 3.55 since the 80s.

P. Ivan wrote:

You want to see a great race? Look no further than the women's Seoul 1500m.

https://youtu.be/QDnu5vIATnU

Paula Ivan's great 1500m race win is one of my favorites of all time!

jeff tallon wrote:

a lot of people seem to think that because shes scottish,and ran 4.07 in 2013,shes clean.i dont know if she is,or not,but if she were chinese,russian,moroccan,turkish, or ukrainian,and ran 4.07 in 2013,and then ran 3.55 in 2016,there would be an outcry,and a massive amount of condemnation.no turk has ever ran as fast as she has,no american either.russia has been banned from athletics,yet none of their heavily drugged superwomen have run as fast as laura muir,and no soviet has run 3.55 since the 80s.

Scotland doesn't have history of a doping culture. Scottish coaches haven't been linked to doped athletes. UKAD has shown massive incompetence (purposeful or not), but seemingly has more integrity than IAAF or the NADOs of Russia, Turkey or Morocco.

Context matters.

rojo wrote:

I just don't get the logic.

You should, since you use it all the time. It's simple, and compelling: She ran as fast as a bunch of women who are known or suspected dopers. This fact alone does not prove that she is a doper. It is possible that she is clean, and that she is just that much better than anyone else. But after Lance Armstrong, it's hard to make that argument with a straight face.

rojo wrote:

My question to you then is why didn't the dope work in Rio?

It's like they say, "Pills don't teach skills." Everyone agrees that her race plan in Rio was puzzling. Instead of doing what she did yesterday -- going out early and grinding out faster laps to get a gap the kickers can't make up -- she took off with Dibaba with two laps to go. She held on until the top of the home straight, where she got caught by the kickers.

There was even a thread asking why she didn't push the pace. As one poster put it: "She can't kick as well as others. So what's her race strategy?"

Obviously, these arguments do not prove she's doping. But it is just a tad disingenuous to dismiss them as illogical or silly.

FWIW, I think this case is made for the Scot's verdict: Not proved.

Clerk wrote:

jeff tallon wrote:

a lot of people seem to think that because shes scottish,and ran 4.07 in 2013,shes clean.i dont know if she is,or not,but if she were chinese,russian,moroccan,turkish, or ukrainian,and ran 4.07 in 2013,and then ran 3.55 in 2016,there would be an outcry,and a massive amount of condemnation.no turk has ever ran as fast as she has,no american either.russia has been banned from athletics,yet none of their heavily drugged superwomen have run as fast as laura muir,and no soviet has run 3.55 since the 80s.

Scotland doesn't have history of a doping culture. Scottish coaches haven't been linked to doped athletes. UKAD has shown massive incompetence (purposeful or not), but seemingly has more integrity than IAAF or the NADOs of Russia, Turkey or Morocco.

Context matters.

She's a white, of european descent (not that "white" russian nonsense), so she's clean.

Thanks, we got it.