Northville NXN team barred ability to go to NXN nationals by MHSAA rule after qualifying in regionals

tunkcart wrote:

I wonder how long it will be until a fair number of high-level programs just bypass the MHSAA entirely?

You'd need a number of them to do it together so they'd have competition. They wouldn't be able to race at any MHSAA event, be it conference, state, etc. Most ADs would be very against it.

How would it fly if Girls Team XXX from one town and Boys Team XXX from another town formed a club. Would that satisfy the Michigan need to have kids from more than one school and would Nike/FootLocker allow the club to participate because the actual teams racing are from one school even if the whole club isn't from one school?

Obviously having a reasonable rule makes the most sense, but till Michigan wises up....

Much of the discussion here has revolved on whether the rule has been correctly applied by the MHSAA. I wonder if the presiding judge might be more concerned with the existence of the rule itself. I'm not sure any state association has a mandate to prevent parents from letting their children compete in a non-school-related event in the post-season.

And if I were associated with the MHSAA, I'd be hoping the judge throws out the rule in the first round. Extra innings mean extra legal $$$, and the MHSAA cannot afford to lose another big one.

Is the problem really with the MHSAA or is it Northville's AD who is using the MHSAA card and not allowing? A previous poster referenced a Cody from MHSAA allowing for some behind the scenes rule bending to allow for a team to run at the Portage Invite. Seems there might be much more to this below the surface, especially if Northviille ran NXN two years ago. I understand their fourth place finish this year is due to their best runner having been injured several weeks prior and not running at the regional or state meet.

Actually, Northville's second best runner was injured, but ran in both the state meet and NXN - she wasn't top five in either. However, several Northville girls ran much better in NXN than at states, and one girl who didn't run at states ran very well at NXN.

I just don't get it! The Michigan High School CC season is over. Why should a state association restrict participation any athletic events AFTER the season that they control is over?!?!

All state associations restrict out of season activities, just in different ways.

There is a legitimate purpose behind these rules, and that is to protect scholastic athletes from being pressured (by coaches, boosters, or even parents) into intense year-round, single-sport participation. Think about football if there were no limits...

Still, the Michigan rule could be changed to allow for some limited post-season competition for teams in some sports.

Those who think separating xc from schools need to keep in mind that 70%+ of xc athletes would not turn out for xc if it weren't a school sport. A lot of those kids become good and even great runners. Plus, the club experience can't match being on a school xc team.

#FreetheFro

The degree of control MHSAA thinks it has over students is creepy. I can understand the maintenance of rules during the season and for official school sanctioned events - but it gets creepy when they start watching what we are doing outside the season and outside the school.

Delaware has rules that official XC practice can't start until mid-August. Other states have something similar. It would be really creepy, however, if some DSAA official was monitoring the trails and roads in June and July looking to disqualify kids from XC if found running together (which they do A LOT of on their own, organized by themselves). MHSAA is sorta like doing that...

Don't like their rules? No one is forcing you to run under them.

As stated below, Northville's #2 runner has not be a factor in scoring since she took two weeks off. She mentioned no running for 2 weeks on Twitter. So we can assume she was injured and is not yet back to her prior times. If she had been then #2 at state then we can assume the team would have finished much higher up. I would love to see how they could do at NXN with her back to her prior times and with the other teammates that have stepped up in the later part of the season.

It would be worth it for the 3 seniors but what about the other runners who may loose a year of eligibility. It could affect their college recruiting if they cannot compete at regionals and state where many seem to run PRs.

Northville had asked for and received permission to run at NXN Midwest in 2013 but did not do so in 2014 or 2015 because did not think they needed to. No one has asked if others had received permission in 2014 or 2015. I did. I contacted the MHSAA prior to the 2015 NXN Midwest meet.

Read the MHSAA handbook and see what all they have say regarding out of season activities.

That e-mail was from 2013 and was based on what was on the Runnerspace page at the time. Not the best source of information. I think the MHSAA should have contacted Nike directly to get all the details.

I am not sure that e-mail could be used every year. I assumed any club going each year would request permission each year. I am a little surprised they went in 2014 and 2015 without requesting a statement. I asked this year.

As stated in other posts, Nike requires signed form athletic director regarding MHSAA permission to run and for participation in other activities at NXN. Nike requires permission for each item they pay for and for publicity photos and for other activities.

Been there too. Michigan runners can keep the gear if they pay full retail price for it. Some Michigan runners at NXN and Foot Locker have purchased some or all the gear which retails for around $600. I think Michigan has a $25 limit for the value of gear. The Gazelle Sports Elite races in Michigan at GVSU gives out shirts/jerzies but not more because of the limit.

I agree Northville should has asked for approval to attend the NXN regional each year. No one asked if other clubs asked. MHSAA did state clubs were permitted to compete at NXN Midwest in 2015 but the question is did any Michigan clubs have any members from outside of a single school.

The following MHSAA condition may also be an issue for NXN Midwest.

b. Qualification is not based on performances in the high school season or MHSAA tournament results;

How does the meet directory determine which clubs are placed into the championship races and which are placed in the open races. He looks at the MHSAA tournament results. Would that violate condition b above?

I do not know if NXC limits club membership to those attending Northville high school but one of the other Michigan D1 clubs does according to members. I asked two members if anyone may join or only members of their school and was told it was limited to members of the school. The club may start up members of the same school but when they say only members of the school may join it then the club is seen as the team by the MHSAA. I wonder if this will have implications for all the clubs that run MITS (indoor meets) and relay teams at New Balance.

No free swag for MHSAA athletes from Nike due to $25 MHSAA limitation.

There was a Twitter converstation that Cody Inglis knew about regarding NXN clubs. Cody received telephone calls in October asking about the below Twitter conversation.

FROM

Pinned Tweet

NCA ‏@NCANationals 2h2 hours ago

@milesplit @DyeStat NXN has informed the Michigan State Assoc. that NXN Midwest teams do not have to attend the same HS, were you aware?

FAVORITE1

NCA

11:03 AM - 6 Oct 2015 · Details

Tweet text

Reply to @NCANationals @milesplit @DyeStat

Jeff Martin ‏@JumpCoachMartin 2h2 hours agoTerre Haute, IN

@NCANationals @milesplit @DyeStat this is false! All members of a team MUST be from the same high school. NO ALL-STAR TEAMS!!!

1 retweet1 favorite

IL Prepster ‏@ILPTT 2h2 hours ago

@NCANationals @milesplit @DyeStat you got your facts wrong fam! Where do you get this from??

0 retweets0 favorites

NCA ‏@NCANationals 2h2 hours ago

@ILPTT @milesplit @DyeStat Cody @ the MHSAA stated that they were told this by NXN. He was unaware that all athletes must attend the same HS

0 retweets0 favorites

NCA ‏@NCANationals 2h2 hours ago

@ILPTT @milesplit @DyeStat Stated, if this were the case Michigan teams could not compete at NXN Midwest

0 retweets0 favorites

NCA ‏@NCANationals 2h2 hours ago

@JumpCoachMartin @milesplit @DyeStat I said the same thing, he stated if that were true no MI team can compete.

0

Long Winded, great info.

Are you saying you were given permission by MHSAA to run a team in nxr even though they knew all the specifics re: team formation, seeding?

I may be misreading the Twitter exchange but it sounds like they said one thing based on incorrect info, then corrected it when given correct info?

Did you have any discussions with them about what would happen if you qualified for nxn?

.

Nxner wrote:

Long Winded, great info.

Are you saying you were given permission by MHSAA to run a team in nxr even though they knew all the specifics re: team formation, seeding?

I may be misreading the Twitter exchange but it sounds like they said one thing based on incorrect info, then corrected it when given correct info?

Did you have any discussions with them about what would happen if you qualified for nxn?

The Twitter exchange confusing but it does show the question was brought up and Cody acknowledged receiving calls regarding it so he knew of the question and concern regarding MHSAA approval..

My guess is that no one at MHSAA may have known about the seeding at regionals if all they have looked at in 2013 was the content on the Runspace NXN website. Michigan "running clubs" have been competing at NXN Midwest since 2013 and New Balance and MITS much longer. Anyone interested could look at the entries or results and see the formation/school makeup of the clubs. I don't know if coaches have been ignoring this condition. I don't know if the MHSAA just did not take the time to look at the club memberships until now and did not point out the condition to clubs/coaches until now. The high school coaches and AD should know the conditions in the MHSAA handbook. It is really sad this did not get more attention until now that there is a very disappointed group of runners. I would hope this can bring about a change in the MHSAA rules. If the coaches and athletic directors cannot get a change to occur through the current process then maybe they may consider leaving the MHSAA or legal action or state legislative changes. I guess some may argue the other 49 states are wrong and don't have the best interest of the athletes in mind and are in the pocket of the big corporation.

E-mail exchange as follows:

from: xxxxxxxxxxxx

to: Cody Inglis

date: Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:29 PM

subject: Re: Twitter Statements Regarding NXN and MHSAA

Cody,

Now that some time has passed since the Twitter postings I was wondering if you could comment on the question of will "running clubs" consisting of cross country athletes from MHSAA schools be allowed to run at NXN Midwest once again this year like they could last year?

from: Cody Inglis

to: xxxxxxxxxxxx

date: Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 9:43 AM

subject: RE: Twitter Statements Regarding NXN and MHSAA

mailed-by: mhsaa.com

Good Morning xxxxxxxxxx,

Thanks for the email. The NXN Midwest club race will be open to Michigan teams and individuals this year, as it was last year.

I hope that helps. Best of luck to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Thanks,

Cody Inglis

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I guess the question is whether MHSAA knew the requirements of NXR when they issued the email. Some of the twitter posts suggest they were told (by NXN or others) that members of clubs could be from different high schools. Do you have reason to believe that they (or Cody) truly knew the requirements? Your email doesn't really state them but that could be because you had reason to think he already knew?

I think this is an important point as the NXN/NXR pages do not make this clear (in fact, they seem designed to hide this point). Every year we have kids who are certain that they can get a few runners from neighboring schools and form a 'club' to run in NXR...these are smart kids and parents, and they can't find anything on runnerspace telling them otherwise. Until they contact the meet director... At one point I found this rule online but I can't locate it right now.

The irony is that JV and non-elite varsity could run in any NXR race but the championship section without violating any MHSAA rules.

Not surprisingly these aren't the only rules MHSAA has decided to selectively enforce.

This year their division 3 girls championship team violated several of the MHSAA's recruiting and transfer rules but received no penalties. Their coach broke rules on facebook before they were students, they ran in track meets while they were supposed to be sitting out and their transfers were certainly athletically motivated. MHSAA knew about all of this but chose not to act.

#FreetheFro

Update: The girls have the green light to run from MHSAA!

Thank you for all the support. We really appreciate it!

Great News. Rational heads prevailed.

According to this article, the girls who ran at Nike Nationals are serving a three meet suspension.

http://www.hometownlife.com/story/sports/high-school/northville/2016/08/29/northville-girls-runner-up-opener/89527250/