Renato CANOVA: congratulations for BEKELE!

Re who's on drugs, who isn't, all I know is that I don't know, but I wish I did know.

Not sure what plasma expansion- the regular phenomena of hematocrit dripping after periods of intense exercise- has to donwith anything. It is not unique to East Africans, or altitude, or fully aerobically developed athletes. It has nothing to do with the claim Renato makes that the effect of EPO cannot enhance performance on top of the gains made from being fully trained at altitude.

And your last paragraph: that claim, that EPO cannot enhance performance in powoks or whatever, relies on those athletes being exceptions to what we know about adaptations to exercise, altitude and synthetic EPO. Until you or he or anyone can show that they respond to EPO differently, we cannot make them an exceptional case. There haven't been scientific studies. Exactly. So how can Renato say elite level altitude Kenyans are different from what know about doping and EPO?

cici wrote:

actual scientist wrote:

No actually he is correct and you are wrong. If this guy gave us all his protocols and substances used, anybody should be able to do it. That\'s how science works.

No, I am an actual scientist. Both of you are incorrect, I am correct. Keeping your protocols and substances a secret does not mean it is not science. It means it is a secret. You don\'t have to publish all of your methods and knowledge unless you are trying to get peer reviewed for example. Plenty of organizations and people keep their science a secret for business reasons. That\'s how science ACTUALLY works.

Tell this to whoever mistaught you about science.

Gees well of course that\'s the case in biz, but not in academia....didn\'t realize we were arguing over semantics here. At least one of us put our name on it.

And I was trained by both the prez of one of the best public university in the US, and the president of HHMI (the largest endowed medical research foundation in the world). Don\'t think I need to tell them jack about how science works ;)

actual scientist wrote:

Gees well of course that's the case in biz, but not in academia....didn't realize we were arguing over semantics here. At least one of us put our name on it.

And I was trained by both the prez of one of the best public university in the US, and the president of HHMI (the largest endowed medical research foundation in the world). Don't think I need to tell them jack about how science works ;)

It is not semantics. We are talking about business not academia. Don't try to move the goalposts. Where you were trained for science is irrelevant. If you are speaking about it incorrectly, then your training was wrong or you learned wrong.

Newsnight wrote:

The bio-passport is easily beaten but the morrocans have been pretty much wiped out by it and can no longer compete at their previous level.

Yes to both, because blood doping is - by IAAF's design (rules) - still easily and safely doable, but only to limited amounts. For example, an increase of the Hb concentration by either EPO/CERA or transfusions from 14 to 16 g/dl (see Radcliffe) is still tolerated when keeping the off-score below 110. That is no comparison to the crazy values of Ramzi (and Shobukhova, among others) with off-scores above 150. All of that can be found in the so-called IAAF Response to Ashenden/Parisotto/Seppelt/telegraph et al.

No surprise then that people are still doping, while many world records of the past look unbreakable.

Clerk wrote:

Not sure what plasma expansion- the regular phenomena of hematocrit dripping after periods of intense exercise- has to donwith anything. It is not unique to East Africans, or altitude, or fully aerobically developed athletes. It has nothing to do with the claim Renato makes that the effect of EPO cannot enhance performance on top of the gains made from being fully trained at altitude.

You're clueless. How do you get internet in your van down by the river? Must've fallen on your head once too many while adjusting the antenna.

In the recent word of your likely hero: Wrong.

Can you show me a peer-reviewed publication in which already-developed athletes show sustained plasma expansion after months of training? Most literature states that contributions from erythropoiesis and plasma are of similar order and hematocrit is maintained, after an initial period up to a few weeks' training during which plasma volume rises faster than rbc volume.

If you've maxed out total blood volume and take EPO, you're not going to increase blood volume. You'll increase hematocrit at the expense of plasma volume, which is likely to decrease mean erythrocyte pulmonary transit time which will likely decrease oxygenation.

^There's the secret for all you LetsRun geniuses.

Here's the Simple English version:

Running lots builds pipes for your blood in the form of capillaries. You can only fit so many capillaries in your muscles, and can only fit so much blood in your body. Properly trained Kenyan world class distance runners (prokwoks) born and training at altitude essentially reach their limiting maximum blood volume.

If you take a prokwok and give him/her EPO, that'll increase their number of red blood cells. But since they're at their max blood volume, the plasma - the liquid component of blood outside of cells - volume will have to decrease or stay the same - there's hardly any place for more blood, it'll just get urinated out through the kidneys. So now you have a lower amount of plasma volume compared to red blood cell volume than you did before - a higher "hematocrit". And it's been shown that a lower plasma volume for a given hematocrit decreases the amount of time that a red blood cell spends in the capillaries of the lungs grabbing onto fresh oxygen and disposing of CO2. So now your prokwok's red blood cells are effectively worse per cell at oxygenating blood and fixing acidosis.

On the other hand, the prokwok has more red blood cells. Does this make up for having slightly less-oxygenated hemoglobin in the blood cells? No, because it is the gradient in oxygen which drives its diffusion, and on the relevant timescale of a red blood cell's passage through active muscle, the magnitude of the gradient matters much more than the density of red blood cells in getting that oxygen out and into the muscles. Not only that but more red blood cells increases blood viscosity which required higher energy expenditure by the heart and lowers venous return of blood from the extremities.

Giving a prokwok EPO effectively makes their blood slower and less useful.

Sources?

Hello M. CANOVA !

I take your coming here to tell you that I have pinpointed a physiological point that could justify your training method based on your BIG PRINCIPLE : "The MOST significant training is That Which is Conducted at the speed of the race you want to run. All other training exists solely to support specific training".

I searched diligently with other colleagues whose BBEN whether others had already used this physiological argument. Apparently not.

I am French and I have produced several substantial documentation in French on this subject.

But I can summarize my point of view in English on half a page.

I am available to send you the summary and / or documents by email.

If you are interested, send me an email at:

nicolas.neff@free.fr

Here there are my answers :

this is interesting.....renato keeps on claiming over and over that kenyans are too talented for EPO to have any benefit, now he is claiming that its altitude training that makes EPO useless to use at 1700m+

I NEVER said Kenyans don’t have benefit from EPO. Instead, I said TOP AFRICAN ATHLETES, KENYAN AND ETHIOPIAN, BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE, DON’T HAVE ANY BENEFIT FROM EPO, IF USING PROPER TRAINING (and this is the reason because the bests are clean : they can’t be the bests if are not in proper training).

and the only way he can know this? cause HE HAS BEEN USING IT ON HIS ATHLETES? how else would someone have soo much knowledge about the effects of EPO on highly trained athletes at altitude unless they have been dabbling in it since the inception?

The reasons is more simple : also if I never had any experimentation with EPO, so I don’t have DIRECT DOCUMENTATION that EPO doesn’t work, I have on the contrary a lot of DIRECT DOCUMENTATION that clean athletes can bettered the WR, can win OG and WCh, and can be among the best in the World. For that reason, also if there is something using EPO in these events, I don’t see any demonstration that EPO works, because they run SLOWER than the clean athletes.

how about some real science behind your claims, how is it that EPO doesnt work on kenyans, how is it that EPO doesnt work when training above 1700m?

Real “deductive” science exists only with proper researches on omogeneus subjects and categories, studying DIRECT EFFECTS of actions involving physiology on well identified subjects. I repeat : the subject (or category) is not “Runners”, is not “Kenyans”, and is not “Elite” if the idea of Elite is to put in this category athletes running 2:40 in Marathon. The category, including very few people, is “Top athletes (maybe runners in top 50 in the world all-time in their events) born, living and training in altitude (so, mainly Kenyans and Ethiopians, and not Maroccan, Russians, Italians or Americans), using proper training (so, for selecting the category, scientists need to know what proper training means, and they don’t know). Final conclusion : THERE IS NO REAL SCIENCE BEHIND WHAT I SAY, BUT THERE IS NO REAL SCIENCE BEHIND THE WIDESPREAD IDEA THAT EPO WORKS, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT NEVER THERE WAS A SPECIFIC AND PROPER SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH. On my side, I have the advantage to have direct knowledge of training, and of the results athletes can achieve with proper preparation, something the “real scientists” don’t know.

and why is it that the distance times of the top runners fell significantly off since the stricter EPO tests?

Please, don’t show to all the world that you are an idiot, asking something like this exactly 3 days after the best marathon all-time. Or for you Bekele and Wilson Kipsang were not top runners ? One thing you clearly show with this statement is that you don’t know anything about the athletic history.

bottom line is this, you might be a great coach renato, but take away your talent pool and PED use and how great are you then? what training are you doing that is sooooo ground breaking better than everyone else that coaches out there? every top coach that claims they are soooo much better up till now has been dirty.

In any field, somebody accusing other people without knowing anything is an idiot. What can you think if somebody, without knowing you, can accuse you to be a thieve, only because you have money, or to say you are a drugged, because one of your friends is drugged ? You speak as I use some PED, which I never used with any athlete in my life (and I coach athletes from 1968, when probably you still didn’t exist), putting as hypothesis something not true. About the second part of your statement, I never claimed to be soooo much better than other coaches, simply I explain what I do, that is similar to what many other coaches do, without explaining. And, believe me, the majority of top coaches for endurance are clean, and not dirty.

russians during the cold war...top coaches? no they were on PEDS

east and west germans during cold war....top sprinting and throws coaches? no they were on PEDS

About this, you have reason, but this doesn’t mean other coaches, of other Countries, were also on PEDs. And, in spite of this situation, the best sprinters and hurdlers of the period of the cold war were American and Jamaican (sometimes Italian, like Livio Berruti winning 200m in Olympics 1960 and Pietro Mennea winning Olympics 1980 and bettering the WR of 200m in 1979), not Russian or Germans, apart some exception like Hary (100m) in 1960 and Borzov (100 and 200m) in 1972.

where did charlie frances learn his "stuff" from? oh them eastern block countries sprint coaches, same with john smith.

I think this is not correct, I don’t know about Charlie Francis (learn how to write the names before speaking…), but of sure John Smith didn’t have any influence from coaches of the Eastern Countries

Jamaica was always in the top for sprinting, but then booom you have countless stars in a matter of years, how many got busted for PEDs? same with Kenya

Apart the fact I have problems to understand what you write (my English is not perfect, but also your is difficult to understand), I want to teach you that Jamaican won Olympics in sprinting already with Herb McKinley, with Haseley Crawford, had the WR of 200m with Don Quarrie, and all these athletes were of sure very clean. So, for going to the second part of your statement, you have to give the answer : “How many Jamaican were busted for PEDs ? And how many Kenyans ? Of course, speaking about the bests, not about third level runners in their own Country.

this spring and summer aden gets raided, then kiprops coach gets arrested, hmmm and both diababa and kiprop were running flawlessly then flailed. how is it there are sooooo many athletes getting busted and coaches denying this and that and getting raided and arrested and your the only clean group on the planet? yet you know so much about how EPO works...hmmm

Aden was raided, but at the moment we don’t have any final report, and all his athletes (apart Balla) were clean when tested, immediately after the situation in Spain, and several times before Rio. The common suspicion is not a proof that really something illegal happened, also if it’s clear Jama Aden is in the so called “grey zone”, which includes all athletes and coaches using supplements (I don’t belong to that category).

Who was arrested, was not the coach of Asbel Kiprop (he trains for his own), but his manager. This because of an allegation coming from somebody who wanted a “revenge” for something that happened in the past, using the new Kenyan law against doping administration. In all this situation, the action of Kenyan Police was absolutely crazy, since they didn’t have any evidence (apart the allegation) but wanted to show that Kenya is a Country very tough against doping. Before speaking, I suggest you to wait the conclusion of the hearing, at the end of November. But I can already tell you the final result : both Federico Rosa (manager) and Claudio Berardelli (who was the coach of Rita Jeptoo) will be cleared for the simple reason that NOTHING EXISTED and was true.

About the fact that I’m clean, must I feel shame, and have I to consider myself guilty for this ?

a good coach can make athletes wherever they go, but coaches with egos and greed will go to where good athletes are located with lax testing to make a name for themselves.

Maybe you don’t know what a profession is. What do you think about American coaches of Basket working with European Teams, or with many Italian Coaches working in the Premier League of Soccer and around the World, or about Chinese coaches for gymnastic in many Countries of the World ? And what do you think about Lionel Messi from Argentina playing in Spain, like Cristiano Ronaldo who is Portuguese, or about Lewis Hamilton, Briton, driving Mercedes which is a German car ? In my life I was head coach in Qatar and in China, and those Federations came to me, not me to them. You don’t go to coach African runners because of your ego and because there are not doping tests, you go, if you have passion, because ONLY WORKING WITH THE MOST TALENTED YOU CAN DISCOVER WHAT HUMAN BEINGS CAN DO, something that clearly coaches of College and HS can’t know (but I explain you that NO COACHES WORKING WITH TOP AFRICAN RUNNERS can earn more than 10% of what coaches of College in US can earn). You don’t go in other Countries for making a name for yourself, you are called by other Countries because already have a name.

makes me wonder why none of you high profile european agent/coaches havent tried nepal or tibet yet....those sherpas have by far the most amazing "engines" out there, living at 14,000ft for thousands of years, able to summit Everest without oxygen while lugging people and gear over and over....i would imagine they have lax testing

And this is the last proof you are a total idiot. For succeeding in some sport, the first step is how this sport is spread in the area. You don’t go Italy for coaching players of cricket, you don’t go Tibet for coaching cyclists, for the simple reason that in Italy cricket doesn’t exist, and in Tibet there are no bikes. And also about the knowledge of physiology, you show to be a “minus quam”, because people living in these areas have physiological situations that are exactly the opposite of what we need for running fast.

If you are young, as I hope for you, go to school again, and try to learn something better of the stupid ideas you have in your mind. Switch on your brain, before writing stupidities.

Spoken like a true professional and scientist.

Guys, Canova's intelligence (even if you haven't met him) is through the roof. Guys like Clerk are an embarrassment to LRC. Just throwing shade and slander.

Everyone shut up and appreciate what we have for once.

Clerk, I use your quote in the opposite way : you write

There haven't been scientific studies. Exactly. So how can Renato say elite level altitude Kenyans are different from what know about doping and EPO?

And I have two answers :

1) I don't say elite level altitude Kenyans are different from what know about doping and EPO. I say EVERY ELITE LEVEL ATHLETE LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE, coming from every Country but having these characteristics, DOESN'T HAVE ANY ADVANTAGE WITH EPO.

2) So, you continue to do a mistake, thinking that the object of my discussion are Top Level Kenyans. No, the OBJECT IS THE EFFECTS OF TRAINING IN HIGH ALTITUDE FOR TALENTED ATHLETES, TRAINING IN PROPER WAY, LIVING AND STAYING ALWAYS IN ALTITUDE. When I give the example of Zane and Jake Robertson, I don't speak about Kenyans or African, I speak about two "mzungus" without top talent, able to improve till the best position in the world BECAUSE OF THEIR TRAINING IN ALTITUDE. Now, I don't know how many times already I explained this, but I repeat again : THERE ARE NO SCIENTISTS OR PHYSIOLOGISTS KNOWING THE EFFECTS OF ALTITUDE TRAINING FOR AFRICAN TOP RUNNERS RESPECTING THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS : BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING AT THAT LEVEL. And there are no scientists or physiologists knowing HOW PROPER TRAINING FOR A WORLD RECORD IS. So, speaking about EPO, they can know ONLY what they went to study, and the effects of EPO on the best athletes in the World is something they don't know

3) I don't know the effects of EPO on the best athletes in the World, but I well know the effects of training. And, casually, the effects of training with the most talented athletes are that they can beat WR, can win OG and WCh and can be competitive at the higher level. How I explained in an other post, I don't deny that some athlete of the same category (born, living and training in altitude) used EPO, but the fact is that who used NEVER was one of the best in his event. This with one exception only : Rita Jeptoo, who I know used EPO only before her last marathon in Chicago 2014, for cutting the time of full recovery after an injury that stopped her training for more than two months, and Chicago was her WORST marathon of the last 3 years. The 95% of doped Kenyans are athletes weak or of medium level, and their doping is more connected with steroids than with EPO.

Please, stop to change what I explained a lot of times, trying to put in my mouth something I never said.

Oh Renato, you tease me.

1) The one obvious advantage Jamaica and Kenya have is quite obvious, the Commonwealth games, up until recently they were the second most important event. The initial success at this level grew into Olympic success, which then grew into traditions. From a sporting stand point Ireland's biggest mistake was leaving Great Britain (not sure they would agree with that).

2) I ran this "EPO doesn't work on certain people" past my next door neighbour, an esteemed (and for this site a nameless) Professor of Cardiology. From what he is saying is that the evidence would suggest there is no racial differences in its effects. He did say however, that the original versions of EPO were designed to help very sick people who needed a large lift whereas people who were hypoxically well conditioned would only see small gains from a standard dosage unless they were planning on taking dangerous amounts, which would not get past testing anyhow. Small gains though could be as much the difference between 13:04 and 12:53, may be less. So those people that think that all Kenyans are doping are imbeciles but those that turn a blind eye to outliers are also extremely naive.

Personally, I have long suspected that if these athletes are doing something, it would be more for recovery to do more traing, like ordering SARMS off eBay for $60. (Yes they send to Ethiopia and Kenya).

3) that work out for Bekele looked quite complex and would require a lot of lactic acid, I have long wondered what Arthur Lydiard would make of it all.

Pretty sure it would require zero lactic acid. But hey, you think you're smart so keep on thinking that.

you mention

that david epstein wannabe Yannis Pitsiladis.

problem is unlike epstein ,yannis actually has connections

wada obviously and above

and this so called sub 2 hr project he is involved with .

another charlaton and shill for iaaf that pretend to fight this

war on doping when actively promote it .

the proof i needed that bekele's doping has taken on another level

of doping since his "cera" days ( using peds before even on market ).

looking alot fuller and had got quite skinny if notice pics at half marathon

against farah , so testosterone being applied in buckets to get

those thick quads of his youth .

nike working there magic and bekele has been given the green light to

dope . a free card to take whatever wants obviously stuff that will be out of system in short duration unlike other peds ...

for record meldonium was found in ethiopia because it worked

but as said has to be used with igf-1 lr3

and now have similar mildronate alpha , wada approved and set up

,but first had to ban meldonium and not test for this one and then dish out

obviously doping is a very serious concern, but can't you guys start another thread dedicated to that discussion with Mr. Canova? rather than hijacking every thread where he's talking about training etc

I get that doping is the elephant in the room so to speak, but would still like to hear more from Renato on training, athletes like Bekele, etc

I think he's way less likely to post when every thread devolves into the same "discussion" about EPO

Thank you again Renato for posting your insights about training. I just wanted to say again that we love hearing from you, even if a vocal minority keep posting stupid things.

Here's the Simple English version:

Running lots builds pipes for your blood in the form of capillaries. You can only fit so many capillaries in your muscles, and can only fit so much blood in your body. Properly trained Kenyan world class distance runners (prokwoks) born and training at altitude essentially reach their limiting maximum blood volume.

If you take a prokwok and give him/her EPO, that'll increase their number of red blood cells. But since they're at their max blood volume, the plasma - the liquid component of blood outside of cells - volume will have to decrease or stay the same - there's hardly any place for more blood, it'll just get urinated out through the kidneys. So now you have a lower amount of plasma volume compared to red blood cell volume than you did before - a higher "hematocrit". And it's been shown that a lower plasma volume for a given hematocrit decreases the amount of time that a red blood cell spends in the capillaries of the lungs grabbing onto fresh oxygen and disposing of CO2. So now your prokwok's red blood cells are effectively worse per cell at oxygenating blood and fixing acidosis.

On the other hand, the prokwok has more red blood cells. Does this make up for having slightly less-oxygenated hemoglobin in the blood cells? No, because it is the gradient in oxygen which drives its diffusion, and on the relevant timescale of a red blood cell's passage through active muscle, the magnitude of the gradient matters much more than the density of red blood cells in getting that oxygen out and into the muscles. Not only that but more red blood cells increases blood viscosity which required higher energy expenditure by the heart and lowers venous return of blood from the extremities.

Giving a prokwok EPO effectively makes their blood slower and less useful.[/quote]

Thanks for this. I don't know if it all correct or not but at least now I think I understand the concept.

Renato Canova wrote:

Clerk, I use your quote in the opposite way : you write

...

Please, stop to change what I explained a lot of times, trying to put in my mouth something I never said.

If I misunderstood you, that is my fault. The threads focus so much on East Africans that I thought your claim was exclusively about them.

(EPO helps more in mid distance)

(This is how deep doping is in Kenya)

[/quote]

Moving forward, I will understand your position as EPO not having a performance enhancing effect on maximally trained athletes at altitude. More so, you argue that EPO can have an effect on moderately trained altitude athletes, and even maximally trained sea-level athletes. (I do want to make sure I understand you completely, as I've already made mistakes. Please correct me if I am still misrepresenting you.) With that, comes the assertion that a clean runner can set WRs by being maximally trained at altitude.

I won't talk about whether EPO can out do high level altitude training. That is an epistemic question can only be answered by research that hasn't been done. I believe it does, and you believe it doesn't, and our speculation has valid starting points on both sides.

But I will draw your attention to all the runners who are demonstrably not fully developed, and still performing at the highest level. Bekele was at 80% before he ran 2:06 in London, not training for more than an hour at a time (I believe, may be misremembering.) Dennis Kimetto spent his early life as a farmer, only training for two years before his 2:04 in Berlin. We've seen the training of Sammy Wanjiru, running 15k a day, 12x400, and a 35k long run. Wanjiru spent much of the year in Fukuoka, at what, 15m elevation? What are we supposed to think about these runners, who clearly don't match the characteristics of the kind of runners you claim can be clean and break world records?

And, as you say that EPO can bring a lazy runner to a high level, how can we know the difference between the two, when all we see as observers is an athlete performing.

Certainly, the case of maximally-trained at-altitude is more rare.

Thanks for this. I don't know if it all correct or not but at least now I think I understand the concept.[/quote]

This is assuming that EPO can only increase athletic performance via increasing RBC production. However it might also work in other ways such as through a direct action on skeletal muscle. eg of some of the work done in the area:

The point is that EPO works in terms of increasing athletic performance but it is likely that we do not completely understand how it does this. So trying to hypothesize about why it should not work is difficult when you don't fully understand how it does work.