SEMENYA jogs 800m in 1:55

janitor wrote:

I'm not saying she deserves a right to compete in the Olympics, but why not the Diamond League, and if there are a number of people like Chand and Semenya, maybe award separate prize money while running in women's races, to be fair to the majority of women who are not hyperandrogenic.

They are welcome to run in the men's events, and good grief don't expect them to be the best in the world. They are already faster than the average MAN.

It is crazy to put them in with the women.

If they need a special division, then put them in the special olympics, which has different divisions and they'd fit right in.

daygo wrote:

Why did Semenya ONLY run 1:55?

Only running fast enough to "win" the event.

KudzuRunner wrote:

Let's actually have diversity, rather than insisting on shoehorning everybody into two rigid divisions marked "boys" and "girls."

Good idea. But that would require moral clarity and good judgement. Not the sort of thing that you have when you're trying to sell Coca Cola and Nike shoes at a track meet.

Ross,

Could you just specifically, from here on out, address the fact that these intersex women, as long as they can take money from women who can get pregnant and give birth -- they will.

Can you address that these intersex women show totally disregard for fairness, ethics, sporting fair play...for any of their "competitors?"

This is what people are upset about. That these intersex women just don't give a sh*t. Mostly, they are 3rd world people, undereducated, who just want the money and maybe fame.

Semenya is married to a woman who can give birth, correct? And looks more male every year. It's all become a joke and a farce, because any sense of fair play, sportsmanship (sic) is thrown out the window by Caster, who like Honey Badger "just doesn't give a sh*t," and Caster's coach...who has Real Balls, who knows the real deal here, and just wants the money and notoriety.

The world will be laughing at the Olympics because of this. And Semenya...will find less sympathy world wide, than if she ASKED for an intersex race. She'd still win. The women who can give birth/have ovaries, could still win too.

No you idiot wrote:

janitor wrote:

I'm not saying she deserves a right to compete in the Olympics, but why not the Diamond League, and if there are a number of people like Chand and Semenya, maybe award separate prize money while running in women's races, to be fair to the majority of women who are not hyperandrogenic.

They are welcome to run in the men's events, and good grief don't expect them to be the best in the world. They are already faster than the average MAN.

It is crazy to put them in with the women.

If they need a special division, then put them in the special olympics, which has different divisions and they'd fit right in.

The times Caster is running is only a high school state finalist level in the boys category or maybe a winner in a weak year(for a large state). That level of runner isn't going anywhere at the collegiate level, let alone world level. Does Caster have a pelvic girdle of a man or a woman? If (s)he has one of woman I would say (s)he is a woman with a genetic advantage. What would be still be up in arms of a doped up Russian/Chinese runner were running these fabulous times?

I generally agree with the idea that we should not treat her like an animal, but some of your points are invalid.

[quote]Metric Miler wrote:

She is good at running, like it or not. Her intersex condition does not take away from her athletic ability. All pro athletes are freaks of nature, Semenya just falls outside the categories set up in our sport biologically. [quote]

I don't think anyone doubts her abilities. 1:55 jogging is pretty good for a women or a man. The problem is that she is effectively "doping" by having a testosterone advantage. Would you be ok if the other women were allowed to take whatever drugs they wanted to have an advantage? It's only fair because they were born 100% female so they are disadvantaged now. And if she falls out of the category biologically that is not our problem. Life isn't fair sometimes. Why not lower basketball hoops to 6 feet so the 5'2 guys can play? Why not make soccer nets twice as big so players with less skill can score goals? Part of me strongly believes that she only runs because it's the only sport she can completely dominate because she has many features of a man and that advantage makes her a superstar.

[quote]

However she is a girl, because she was raised a girl and feels she is a girl. Why people here cannot just let that be is beyond me. Maybe it is an expression of their own insecurities. Much like the transgender issues that have come up here before.[quote]

Most people do not have any insecurities about whatever you are talking about. And relating this to the transgender issue does not make sense. Caster is a girl and thinks she's a girl. That's not transgender. But let me ask you this, if she's a girl and thinks she's a man what would you say?

[quote]

Letsrun is the most insensitive place on the internet. What you all have to do with running I have no idea. [quote]

You are correct LR is a very insensitive place, but downplaying the Caster issue a big problem. This is a small step in the direction of allowing men to compete with women. Men who have low testosterone and identity as a woman can easily argue they should be allowed to compete with women now. Eventually as Ross Tusker eluded to you may have a situation where women are no longer competing. It will be all males or women such as Caster running 1:50-1:52 while 100% women are stuck running 1:56-1:58.

Gender Bender wrote:

The times Caster is running is only a high school state finalist level in the boys category or maybe a winner in a weak year(for a large state). That level of runner isn't going anywhere at the collegiate level, let alone world level.

So? 90 percent of all men are slower than the top women, but that is NOT an excuse to call them women, and certainly not to put them in women's events, because THEY ARE STILL MEN, and neither belong nor deserve to be in women's events.

Does Caster have a pelvic girdle of a man or a woman? If (s)he has one of woman I would say (s)he is a woman with a genetic advantage. What would be still be up in arms of a doped up Russian/Chinese runner were running these fabulous times?

Semenya was born a man, and will always be a man, regardless of what he or anyone else calls him. There needs to be more outrage about this. Whether doping gives any advantage is questionable, but being a man gives every man a 10 percent advantage over women.

If CAS "approved" child molesting, then there'd be a rash of child molesting happening right out in public. Would people say that's "okay" just because CAS approved it????? Hopefully NOT!!!!! Don't call the perpetrators innocent, just because CAS approved what they do.

The people who care about women do not approve of this travesty.

No man should be allowed to be in a women's event.

Yes, thank you for saying that. This is the reason that I also disagree with that opinion. But I do feel it is not necessarily incorrect, but just, like you, that sport exists as an 'entity' in which rules can be put in place that may seem arbitrary or discriminatory, but the aspect of choice means that they are still valid, and that they exist to ensure some degree of fairness.

I think you put it better.

Ross

LossSucker wrote:

RossTucker wrote:

She is NOT a man. And it is enormously disrespectful to call her "it", or "he".

She is not a woman. It is enormously disrespectful to call her "she". There are three pronouns in English. We've ruled out "he" and "she".

RossTucker wrote:

Nor should any of your wrath or frustration be directed towards her. She's running per the rules that were changed by CAS, and it is they who should shoulder the responsibility for the mess that is the women's 800m.

Since Semenya insists on going out on one of the most public stages and unfairly taking advantage of CAS's ill-advised ruling, criticizing Semenya is justified.

The reason Semenya is a she is because she has chosen to identify herself as such, and it is disrespectful for you, or anyone else, to question her own self-identity.

Now, for the purposes of sport, you can make a very good argument (one that I believe and agree with) that she should not be allowed to compete against other women in sport's events in the current state, because of a set of rules that exists to ensure fairness.

Note that this does not make her any less a woman, because that is a gender definition and one that she is entitled to choose, not you.

The issue of participation as a woman should thus be viewed separately, and should, I hope, end what is pretty disrespectful and rigid thinking about what it means to be a woman in society (and I am by no means an authority on that, so I offer this really as second hand information, having listened to others).

Sport, remember, creates a set of otherwise arbitrary rules (think about anti-doping rules for an example) to manage itself, and it is not inconceivable that rules might exist to exclude people from participation even though they self-identify into a category. It is not our place to impose our judgment outside of sport.

Ross

How stupid can you get wrote:

RossTucker wrote:

She is NOT a man. And it is enormously disrespectful to call her "it", or "he".

Semenya has a genetic advantage, by virtue of A) having a Y-chromosome and testes

Make up your mind. Of course he IS a man, and you know he's a man because you just stated he's a man. Your disparagement and suggestion to call him a she, her or a woman, is disrespectful to women all over the world. And your assertion that he can't use testosterone is ridiculous. Of course he can, and he does.

No, there is a difference between being genetically male and anatomically male. This is in fact the very definition of intersex, and that's something you might consider learning about before you come up with very clever arguments in your own mind.

The issue is that an endocrinological problem results is disagreement between the chromosomal and anatomical sex. The former is male (XY), the latter is to some extent female. Now, depending on whether you're talking about AIS or Alpha-5-reductase deficiency, which I assume you know all about, the person develops some traits that are male, some female. Most commonly, they are identified as female early, and self-identify that way too.

If only it were as simple as your argument of genes are male, uses testosterone, therefore is male. That would save a lot of people a lot of problem, but it isn't quite so.

Ross

My point is if Caster has the pelvic girdle of a woman that is a huge disadvantage to compete as a man. It's not just muscle that makes a man a faster runner than a woman, it's a more efficient carriage too.

DearLord, Impart some reason wrote:

If David Rudisha decides to wear dresses and insist everybody consider David Rudisha as a woman now, is David Rudisha allowed to go out set a 1:40 WR for women?

Yes. For pity's sake, educate yourself before spewing off on te keyboard.

1) Not the specifics. It's not known publicly what the exact condition is. Could be AIS or A-5-reductase deficiency as the likeliest candidates. It is known that there was an issue, because of the 'confidentiality' was so botched in 2009. In SA, the media pursued it to the point where it was known that it was an intersex condition. The IAAF's reluctance or inability to let it go is a further indication - had there been nothing there, they'd have dropped it in a heart-beat because the heat was so high. They took it from all sides, but persisted, which is telling. And then her performance trajectory since the rule was implemented and changed also confirms it, just not the specifics.

2) None. The rumours began the moment they appeared, and I've heard them from multiple sources, but I think the sport went into lockdown (probably rightly) after the disaster of 2009, and they've learned the value of secrecy.

3) I honestly have no idea. The IAAF are watching this as a means to obtain evidence. They basically need those women, and there were, if memory serves me, about 8 who were intersex in that 2011/2013 study, and they will be tracking their performances pre- and post-CAS ruling, with a view to responding to the CAS decision. If they can show enough evidence, then CAS may be forced to overturn the ruling, because that ruling was really based on the perceived lack of evidence for advantage. So in a way, the IAAF needs them to all dominate and fly.

Even then, I gotta be honest, I don't see it changing, in part because the evidence can always be distorted. To me, it was pretty obvious before, and it's even more obvious now. But there are always ways to twist that. If you just compare the athletes who are intersex to the right control group, you can paint a picture that says something different. I don't have that much faith in CAS either - this is the same group that decided that pistorius had no advantage when it was blindingly obvious.

And finally, I think we live in an age, for better or worse, where people are oversenstitized to political correctness. I'm not a fan - I'd rather be correct than politically correct, but I think it would take a lot for CAS to change it, so I don't see it happening. That's if I'm cynical.

The more optimistic answer is that they'll revert back to the previous concept of an upper limit which would allow anyone to compete provided they're below X. Last time, they set X at a generous 10nM, and maybe this time they'll shift that up, who knows. But that's the compromise I hope is reached.

Ross

Even for LRC wrote:

RossTucker wrote:

In the interests of trying to offer discussion and debate on this issue, an interview I did with Joanna Harper recently:

http://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

Any thoughts on the NYTimes article cited above?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07...letes.html

"I had no idea that the science of sex differences is extremely contested and has shifted over time..."

Yeah, the whole sex testing thing has such a dodgy history. It's fascinating, but also startling. That's a subject of many, many articles.

But this falls into that argument that I can actually appreciate. It could be argued that it is inhumane, unfair, just downright invasive. And certainly the past, it was horrendous - those nude parades, the physical inspections etc.

They thought that the era of molecular advancement would change that, but it's pretty clumsy, and so it has a checkered history, that's for sure.

So people who argue this aspect, and the ethical, moral issues, I can appreciate that. As I said, I don't agree because I feel that sport is a fairly arbitrary place where rules are created to ensure fairness for the most people, and so a sports rule that looks unfair from outside may not be the same as a societal rule (think of the invasiveness of anti=doping, for example).

So yeah, I totally appreciate that, and I really do feel for individuals with such conditions. However, again, I come at it from the other direction - being intersex is not necessary an advantage for a female, it may be a disadvantage for a male (because that person didn't develop the traits that would make them obviously male), and we don't create rules to help people with disadvantages.

Ross

Insanity on quote of the day wrote:

RossTucker wrote:

She is NOT a man. And it is enormously disrespectful to call her "it", or "he".

Semenya has a genetic advantage, by virtue of A) having a Y-chromosome and testes

The crazy Brojos gave this guy the quote of the day for his nonsensical post, the same type of person who lobbies to have men in the women's events. He admits Semanya is a guy with Y chromosome and testes, yet calls him a she, and think it's "okay" for him to be running in women's events.

Please bring back some sanity to the quote of the day.

Perhaps you missed the actual conclusion I make which is that Semenya or any other intersex athlete should NOT be allowed to compete in the women's events with high testosterone levels, and that the previous ruling, scrapped by CAS, was correct. And that I've frequently called the CAS decision ludicrous.

But you see, you have conflated so many things, it's difficult to know how to pull them apart. The first is gender and sex. Two different things, and who are you to tell someone what they are? Semenya identifies as female (gender) and you should respect that in the sense that this is a decent thing to be as a person in society.

Now, the sex issue is biological and that's where ti gets tricky, so do try to keep up.

Intersex is defined as a mismatch or difference between someone's chromosomal and anatomical sex. So chromosomally male, XY, like Semenya, is male, correct. You get a gold star.

However, because of endocrine issues, the chromosome and its SRY and the resultant reproductive system, with all that testosterone, don't develop properly, and you get female, or ambiguous genitalia. The specifics here matter, in the sense that AIS and a-5-reductase are a little different, but I'm sure you know all about that, since you're wise and strongly opinionated.

Anyway, the end result is the person who is intersex is not entirely male, as a consequence of a hormonal issue, but they're not entirely female either. So therefore, they "choose" how they wish to be identified.

Semenya is therefore not male. She is not female either. But note that I didn't say that. i said that Semenya should be referred to as "she" because that's a gender issue, and it's her call, not yours, however wise and smart you are.

The issue of participation in sport is another matter, and there, you and I actually agree, but you didn't reach that realisation because the purple haze of gender ignorance descended on you too soon.

Ross

Making fair sports competitions will always be a compromise - part of sporting competitions is inherently unfair, it is about who has the most genetic advantage.

In seeking such a compromise, we recognise some categories. In athletics, sex is one, and age is another in other sports, weight is also considered to be such a strong component that there are different categories for competitors in different weight classes.

Age is the reason there are junior championships (for people who are likely below their prime) and masters categories (for people who are likely above their prime). A 1:55 800m time is unremarkable for a 25 yo man, it is very remarkable for a 50 year old man, or indeed for a 25 yo female.

Age and weight are relatively easy to measure, although there is some ambiguity about both; the fighting weight for a boxer will typically be higher than the weight at the official weigh-in, and there are the occasional accusations of age-cheating. Sex is more difficult, but it doesn't mean we cannot do it.

At the moment, our system of equating sex with self-identified gender is primitive and clearly not up to the task. In the spirit of PCA, We should use a threshold in testosterone, or possibly a combination with other factors that most clearly bisects two (or perhaps more) categories of athletes, and that is clearly a dominant factor in performance; this is for sports scientists commissioned by IAAF to determine. It will not be perfect, but it avoids most of the current problems.

As stated earlier, in lower level competitions, for practical reasons, we can stick to the gender based categories, just as we have no drugs testing in those competitions (despite the rules disallowing drugs). Here we have to assume that a self-identified gender correlates with the competition category, just as we have to assume that an athlete competes without drugs.

I can try.

First, I'm not critical of them because I ask what I would do in the same position? They were told previously to medicate to lower T. Some did better than others, but they did it. Then CAS, in their infinite wisdom, decided that was not appropriate, and so all these athletes were then told, no need for the medication any more.

In that situation, I would carry on running, as well as I could, and hope the rule didn't get changed back. I haven't seen too much in the way of flaunting it. I do wonder what goes through Semenya's mind when she lines up, runs and celebrates, how much they're just giving the big finger. Sometimes I feel they are, like when she won all three titles on one day at SA champs this year. I saw that, and it did make me think what you've said, I'll admit that.

However, if she runs slower, to win by a small amount, she'll be criticised too, so effectively, what are we saying? That she should voluntarily withdraw from the sport? I wouldn't do that myself. I think it's harsh to judge her harshly for that reason.

That said, I definitely see where you're coming from. The support staff, yeah, that happened in 2009 back in SA and it was disgusting. They didn't care for the sport, or the athlete, just for the dollars, and it was really uncomfortable to watch happen. It's been a lot lower profile this time around, but that may change in Rio.

Will the world laugh at the Olympics. Some will, yeah. I have said, more than once, that CAS' decision made a farce of the event, and potentially the sport in future. It's a shambles. But overall, I feel sympathy for these athletes, because they've in, then out, then in. Again, what would you do, honestly?

Ross

I am sorry, didn't another intersexed athlete get third behind a XX female?

Intergalactic wrote:

More Accurately wrote:

*it

Derogatory remarks aren't helpful. Semenya isn't the problem. The problem is people who think that intersex/transgendered people should be allowed to compete against women.

Rojo-- can you please read this thoughtful post and more heavily moderate the hateful and disgusting posts about Semenya.