Northville NXN team barred ability to go to NXN nationals by MHSAA rule after qualifying in regionals

Veryyyyyy well said. I agree with almost every point.

However, I have something to add to rule 2. Yes, it is clearly in violation of rule "D", but it is also in clear violation of rule "A".

However, MHSAA has allowed athletes to break both rule D and rule A. Grant Fisher and dozens of other Michigan athletes have broken rule A by going to nationals such as NXN, New Balance (Indoor), and Foot Locker. Furthermore, athletes have broken rule D by forming relay teams for New Balance Nationals made of athletes all from the same school.

What is different here? NXC is a team of 7 and not a relay team of 4? Is Nike Nationals somehow different than New Balance Nationals? I didn't see clauses in your rules that allow them to be broken for these two reasons.

MHSAA claims to Respect the Rules, but maybe they should try to respect them themselves.

If no agreement is reached, Nike could quickly gain a great amount of positive publicity by comping the entire team and parents to NXN. They could let the girls be the honorary starters, let them have all the swag, mix and mingle with the other teams, etc...

At the same time they should invite the president of MHSAA to the event as a guest of Nike, and show him the 'terrible' event he is protecting these kids from racing. Might lead to a quicker rule change.

They technically gave permission to attend the qualifier 3 year ago as that event alone does not violate the rules. It's the final that does. So while giving consent to a qualifier without expressing that if you qualify you can't go was not great communication on the MHSAA's part, it does cover the part about them being told they could go before. They were told they could go to the qualifier that's it.

After reviewing the email sent from MHSAA in 2013, this matter is over.

Its only a matter of time before their attorney reviews that email and tells them exactly where they stand, which is in a very bad and unsupportable situation.

I'd venture to say whoever made the decision to not allow the girls to run had no idea that letter existed- not even HSAA employees are that stupid.

MI Strong wrote:

"You may want to also very publicly point out the fact that last year they allowed Grant Fisher to travel to CA for a XC meet"

No, GF qualified and went - period. As have many other individual MI male and female athletes in the past. Precedent has been set both individually (unattached or club association) and club team wise.

Except, of course, they've been explicitly clear from the beginning that individuals are allowed. Here's the key line from the Milesplit piece:

""Individuals we allow because they do not represent their school," Inglis said. "As long as all MHSAA rules are followed. We know that Michigan has a long history of competitive excellence at the next level at Nike and Foot Locker and various other meets.""

What's at issue is that the so-called "club team" has it's roster limited to include only members of the HS team.

The people who have really done the athletes a disservice are the parents and coaches who held out false hope and basically lied to the kids. *Anyone* who was paying attention to the rules and the qualification process would have known that Michican HS teams can't run at NXN.

In Michigan you have to pay for the gear they give you.

In regards to Prong A, you're misreading the rules. If the meet is "called or promoted" as "a national championship"... that is extremely clear. If the organizers say something like "The 2015 national champions will be crowned on December 5th at the 12th annual Nike Cross Nationals" (taken directly from their website) then NO ONE can participate under MHSAA without getting sanctioned. Not individuals, not teams. There's no wiggle room there, it's either enforce the rule or totally ignore the rule. High schoolers from Michigan are never allowed to participate in an athletic event that claims to be a national championship. Ever, no exceptions.

Which is stupid.

Indoor? wrote:

They technically gave permission to attend the qualifier 3 year ago as that event alone does not violate the rules. It's the final that does. So while giving consent to a qualifier without expressing that if you qualify you can't go was not great communication on the MHSAA's part, it does cover the part about them being told they could go before. They were told they could go to the qualifier that's it.

I find this argument persuasive:

"By providing written approval in 2013 to compete at the Nike Midwest QUALIFIER, the MHSAA has, rightfully so, deemed that this event does not constitute a national high school team championship, and as such we are not violating rule 12(B) (Pg. 50) which states that a student may not compete in an all-star event or "any event which purports to be a national high school championship, or the qualification thereto." We are confident that you would not have approved anything back in 2013 that violated your OWN rules. Certainly, if you felt you had violated your own rules by granting this permission, you would have alerted everyone to your error, which you did not. The MHSAA made the right call back in 2013 allowing running clubs to compete in the qualifying event, and I am confident will make the correct call now and not hold the threat of loss of eligibility over the girls if they attend the national event."

If they determined the qualifier is legal, they determined the championships are legal, because both would be either legal or illegal under the same rule.

Totally Evil Private Coach wrote:

High schoolers from Michigan are never allowed to participate in an athletic event that claims to be a national championship. Ever, no exceptions.

Which is stupid.

Except for they HAVE made exceptions. This is what is extra stupid. MHSAA creates this rules and then decides they only apply to some people, with no logic behind whom. Dozens have gone to High School championships in track and cross country but no exception was made to them.

But then you argue that the reason must be because teams made up of all individuals from the same high school are not allowed. But MHSAA has made exceptions for that rule as well! In track there are multiple 4x4 teams that have gone to nationals made of all runners from the same team. Is an exception made because they are 4 people and not 7? Where do we draw the line, at 5 people? I didn't see some clause at the bottom of MHSAA's rules to specify.

IN ADDITION, the part about how MHSAA emailed NXC giving them permission to run, and then later deciding they cannot just makes it even more pathetic.

This whole thing is a joke. MHSAA is just creating double standards without any logic or reason.

Nike may not let them race without some signature, but I'd bet Nike would treat them like stars, give 'em swag, and let them simply enjoy being there. Without doubt, NXC should buy their tickets and plan to attend regardless of legal tussle.

Video and pictures of NXC girls just standing there watching the race would then be posted online at LR, Flo, and other sites, making MHSAA look forever like a bunch of idiots.

They can't be sanctioned for attending and watching the event, or for accepting Nike gifts, can they?!

Oh MHSAA is definitely showing the nation their ass right now. Horrible decisions compounding upon horrible decisions. It's a terrible rule, it was interpreted terribly in that 2013 email, and it's being enforced terribly now. All of this said, Northville had better have some home cooking with the presiding judge. The rule is clear, and it's being interpreted correctly now. Northville may have justice on their side, but the rule is definitely against them. I would be very surprised if they legal system provided them with the necessary permanent relief that they're looking for.

To any Michigan individuals who are running FL/NXN: I would email MSHAA and get permission. The bigger this blows up, the more consistent MSHAA may become in interpreting this rule...

Very sympathetic to the athletes but I agree the rule is clear. Under a strict interpretation, the girls should lose eligibility based on participation in the regional (unfortunately).

The email from two years ago was poorly done, although it does clearly state that the conclusion is based on the info on runnerspace at the time. The parents would have been better served getting a new decision prior to each year of participation AND making the key elements of the event clear: all 'club' members must attend the same school (this is not listed on the runnerspace page, but it is a firm nxn rule), team results from the HS season are used to seed teams in the championship section (also not listed on runnerspace). With that info clarified it is hard to believe they would have received the same response.

One thing: it is worth noting that Nike and FL are very careful NOT to use the phrase "national *high school* championship"... which may affect interpretation of the rule for individuals. item D is tough to get around for teams, though.

I don't like the rule but there is a process to change it. No way will Nike let those athletes run if there is any risk of losing eligibility.

#GetNXCtoNXN can you clarify if Mark Uyl was told prior to the 2013 email that the 'club' would be exclusively athletes from the same school? In his email he seems to be using 'club' in the way one would use it when referring to usatf or ecnl clubs.

Sorry but I cannot clarify any further as I am not in direct contact with Nancy or the parent in charge of the team.

That said, I would disagree with you about the way he apparently uses the word "club", considering he never specified anything about it and was just talking about "students that are members of running clubs can compete as individuals or part of a club team."

The girls formed their own club team. Zero school involvement. Uniforms, parents, coaching, organization, forms, were all filled out by themselves or their parents.

Yes, they do happen to all be from the same school, but isn't that how clubs typically form? People who know each other getting together. The athletes are not sponsoring or running for the school. They are not getting benefits or coaching from the school. They exist through themselves and their parents.

I do not understand how you can claim they are any more a "club" if they happened to have 1 more member from a different school (basically what MHSAA is claiming they need). It would still be a group of girls, who share an athletic hobby, and have a goal. Just like they are now.

I'm not defending the rule, but it does clearly specify a difference between a club composed of athletes from more than one school vs. a club composed of athletes from the same school. (NXN sees them differently also, which is why they specify that all club members must go to the the same HS). Personally, I would have made it very clear to MHSAA that I was asking about the latter (and the coach may have done so, which is why I asked). Otherwise the email is ambiguous on that point, as it clearly states that it is based on the info on runnerspace. In my state it is the responsibility of athletes/coaches/ADs to make sure the state association is fully informed of ALL relevant factors when seeking rule interpretations.

I understand that the girls have tried to remove themselves from school involvement. Under the rules that is necessary but insufficient in your state (in most states, it is enough). The rules in your state are designed to prevent "HS teams from masquerading as club teams." You can argue that the rule makes no sense...and I agree that is is silly to suggest that it is worse for 7 girls to run for an extra month than for athletes in other sports to scatter among various clubs in the off-season and train harder year-round...but that is a problem with the rule, not the interpretation of the rule.

Just would add: these girls have accomplished a TON already. I hope they don't lose sight of that during all this legal wrangling. Whether they head to pdx or not, top 2 in a regional championship is a huge deal.

The rule needs to change, if anything all this hopefully gets the wheels rolling.

Agreed that Nike will not let them run without the proper docs signed... But I'm positive Nike would let them attend the race, get swag, do the meet-and-greets. So, I still think they should go, and then POST AS MANY PICTURES AS POSSIBLE OF THEM STANDING AND WATCHING THE RACE... those pictures, with captions that say "If we lived anywhere else, we would be running" would really help the cause, and get MHSAA to change their thinking.

I'm sure LR and Flo would post such pictures, right Rojo?

The rule is bad and should be changed.

The rule, as one might reasonably interpret it, prevents the club from competing.

The MHSAA poorly interpreted their own rule and permitted the club to participate.

The MHSAA is now correctly interpreting their own bad rule, and misinterpreting their previous misinterpretation. They did this in a fashion that is particularly ridiculous and devastating.

I wonder how long it will be until a fair number of high-level programs just bypass the MHSAA entirely?