Ryan Hall-- Nice Job Helping Meb Win; Rojo - Nice Reporting

This is only partially true. Let’s see, what’s the best way to put this; The drafting effects of not leading are not negligible. When Shalane was out front everyone here thought she was nuts (I’m not going to argue with that) for “pulling” along the EAs, who were able to conserve mental and physical energy packing up behind her. In the men’s race, probably because there are no rabbits, the contenders were not going to expend energy chasing down a 38 year old coming off a 2:23 marathon. If they could keep the pace as slow as possible and race only the last 10k then they could get a nice payday and can come back fresher in 4 to 6 months for another opportunity. Just like cycling, but slower.

Also, in cycling, a team is made up with a designated team captain, climbers, sprinters, domestiques, etc., and there is a general game plan. If conditions in the race play out differently than they thought, i.e., a domestique gets into a breakaway, then the team director will tell everyone on the team to sit up and see what happens. This is partially altruistic for their teammate who was fortunate enough to make the break but also good for the team exposure. When Meb got away, the Americans sat up, no more no less. Whether it gave Meb 11 seconds or 30 seconds or 1:20 seconds it doesn’t matter, they sat up and bought him some time. Had just one of the Americans decided, “What the hell, I’m going with him”, whether they were capable or not, then Meb doesn’t win.

You’re right here that cycling is a team event but, to a certain extent, so is running. In running, there is a team like atmosphere – we’re all in this together – mindset. I would guess that every American in that race must have let a “team” like mentality creep into their mindset when Meb took off. Just like cycling except less structured.

Of course you should. If you’re Ryan Hall and it’s not your day, why chase Meb down? If you’re a 2:11 marathoner, why chase Meb down? As others have noted, none of the Americans gave up anything by not going with the break. As a matter of fact they not only helped Meb, they helped themselves to PRs and high placings. I would venture to guess that's the epitome of being an American.

Jefe in the CO wrote:

[quote] As others have noted, none of the Americans gave up anything by not going with the break.

Well, seeing as how they aren't fast enough to do it anyway, it was probably a pretty easy choice for them to make.

Man, you are reaching for something that exists in you mind only.

Jefe in the CO wrote:

Of course you should. If you’re Ryan Hall and it’s not your day, why chase Meb down? If you’re a 2:11 marathoner, why chase Meb down? As others have noted, none of the Americans gave up anything by not going with the break. As a matter of fact they not only helped Meb, they helped themselves to PRs and high placings. I would venture to guess that's the epitome of being an American.

Just to take up one of your points, this is part of what I'm getting at. You say "of course your should" as if it's self-evident that a bunch of guys in a race would be willing to make sacrifices so that their countryman would have a better chance of winning. But why would they? There's no benefit to them (unlike in cycling). I understand the patriotism angle, but I'm just not convinced that that would have a huge influence.

And you're kind of arguing with me in that paragraph. Exactly! Why would they chase Meb down? Ryan Hall clearly couldn't have, and when he talked to guys like Craig Leon (supposedly after half-way), those guys were already too far down to catch the chase pack, let alone Meb. And they were already running on the edge of their ability level anyway (as witnessed by the mild positive splits). So if they're not actually making a sacrifice at all, why are we being given a story about the sacrifices that were made?

btpoi wrote:

Jefe in the CO wrote:

[quote] As others have noted, none of the Americans gave up anything by not going with the break.

Well, seeing as how they aren't fast enough to do it anyway, it was probably a pretty easy choice for them to make.

Man, you are reaching for something that exists in you mind only.

Define "seeing how they aren't fast enough to do it anyway". Are you saying that they weren't fast enough to go with Meb at that point in the race? That's stoopid. Of course they could have gone with him and probably drag everyone else along too. They wouldn't have lasted very long but, by then, the damage would have been done.

I do agree that it was an easy decision for them to make but that has no bearing on whether or not they didn't go with him.

The only reason they would have chased him down was because it was early in the race (between 10k and 15k mark I believe) and it would have been instinct to do so. I agree that it wasn't a sacrifice on paper but it probably was in their minds. May be a mild difference but it eventually had big consequences.

Jefe in the CO wrote:

[quote][B:

[quote]:

Of course they could have gone with him and probably drag everyone else along too. They wouldn't have lasted very long but, by then, the damage would have been done.

Clear this up for me: Are you really saying the "probably could have gone with him",and not lasted long, like that dope did at the start of the race?

This is where I'm losing your, and others argument. The Americans were running at their pace, their race. The faster guys decided on their own to hang back with them. They either had a bad day or a bad strategy and Meb beat them.

Meb had a plan, and it worked. He beat everyone on his own. Anyone implying the tactics they employed to finish 8 to 10 minutes behind him had an effect on his win is trying to inject themselves into the story, and in Halls case, draw attention away from his poor showing.

1. Do you think that if one, or several, of the pack runners had broken earlier the Africans would have given chase?

2. Do you think that if the Africans had broken from the pack earlier they would have caught Meb?

That is really what it comes down to.

I think the answer to both is 'Yes'.

Number 1 is speculation of course, but the deeper into the race the more surges are going to be covered. Meb benefitted from the Africans waiting so long. That was his strategy. It was brilliant. It worked. The Africans unknowingly played along and the Americans knowingly played along.

You may not agree but I think the answer to number 2 is a definite 'Yes'.

I don't think the Americans helped Meb win. I like to think they just refused to help the Africans catch him.

Yes, I'm sure the Africans would have been quaking and took off at the first sign a 2:16 American breaking out.

Not like the "tool" who started off with the leaders (although I must admit to doing that in a race or two) who never intended on PRing. I think the guys that could have gone with Meb at that time legitimately believed that they could run 2:10 and felt the pace slowing.

As the quote said, when the pack slowed and regrouped they were going to go to the front to keep the pace up for their own aspirations, not Meb's. In the end, the lead dropped to 7 seconds.

When watching the race I couldn't believe that they let him go (even people who "make their living in the sport" laughed the move off) and then when the lead dropped to 7 seconds I thought he was toast. What a great race by Meb, but best of all; it worked against all odds. It's interesting to start dissecting the day's events to figure out how it happened. Next I'd like to hear the EAs' perspective on the move (boy that would sure blow everyone around here up).

That's why this is an interesting take on the race and why the Brojos should absolutely report on it. It is but one of the many intriguing layers of a great sporting event. Of course you'd really have to be into the sport to appreciate the fact that the Brojos got it.

All that being said I have not heard one salient point justifying the charge that it takes away from Meb's victory. Just a bunch of gnashing of teeth and hearsay gobblygook. Right/wrong, yes/no, etc., etc.

The team work argument is a puff piece. It's an overly sensational attempt to create drama where there really isn't any.

Listen to the language the Brojo's use in it...

There was "NO" way an American could win Boston alone... except that one did, by running close to 30k of the race by himself.

The untold story? Is this a Disney movie? It's a non story. In order for it to be a story, the participants would have to make a sacrifice of some sort to the cause. What was the sacrifice here, not taking the lead in the chase pack, when you're already running faster than your pr pace?

A key role? As opposed to years of hard training, overcoming injuries, making a the gutsy move to the front, negative splitting a marathon running solo, holding off a charging runner up... give me a break. Ryan telling those guys not to lead has zero measurable effect on the race.

The assumption that these guys taking the lead of the chase pack would have been the bridge to catching Meb is just silly. How long would they have led? What pace would have bridged the gap? Would them taking the lead have closed the gap compared to how fast Meb was running at the time? It's asinine to take such a small moment in the race and speculate it as what the brojo's describe as a "Key" moment in the race.

It's laughable. Clearly working together? This is the same type of language the National Enquirer uses to describe the possible baby bump on a Kardasian, to sell news papers. The sole purpose of this article is to puff up Let's Run and promote themselves as the journalist who "broke" the "untold" story.

It's not a story, it's a very cool gesture made by the other runners that has no tangible or measurable effect on the race. The cool thing, is how much the other American's downplayed it.

It should have been a quote about how cool those guys are in an article about how great Meb ran, rather than it being "the breaking point" in his victory.

everyone who is chirping saying Hall did nothing, or that he forced the other americans to run slower. guess what? every american in the race set a pr or almost did.

Look at it this way: the only effect of Hall's advice, according to Hall in the article by RoJo, was to get the Americans in the lead pack to not push the pace. Not that they slowed the pace - they just didn't push it any faster.

Meb broke away at about 8 miles according to race reports.

Presumably the first mile or two after that, he (and Boit)was just pulling away a little and Hall wouldn't have been saying anything yet.

At 15k, Hall, Arciniaga, Leon, and Hartmann were all part of the chase group roughly 10-12 seconds behind Meb. This would have been about the earliest I could plausibly see Hall feeling the need to say anything about not increasing the pace.

By 20k, all 4 of those Americans had been gapped by the chase group (which was still running conservatively and still losing ground). The closest was Arciniaga at 9 seconds back, and the furthest was Hartmann at 36 seconds back.

If they were that far back at 20k (12.4 miles), they had probably been dropped a mile or so earlier (more in Hartmann's case presumably). Basically, somewhere around 11 miles into the race, Hall and his band of patriots ceased to be able to have any effect on the outcome of the race.

That only leaves a window of 1-2 miles or so in which Hall's advice might have had any effect at all. In addition, the fact that the 4 Americans all got dropped despite the fact the chase group only increased the pace marginally (the chasers ran 15:40 from 15k to 20k, and 15:20 from 20k to 25K, while Meb was running 15:18/14:55 for those 2 sections), suggests that they were in no position to be picking up the pace regardless.

So at most, one might grant Hall having a few seconds influence on the chase pack.

Finally, let's not forget that even if Hall did slow the pack ever so slightly, you can't translate that amount of slowing directly to gains for Meb. If you force someone to run a portion of a race slower than race pace, it stands to reason that they can run a later part faster than race pace, even if they don't make up all their losses. Also, one must take into account that Meb himself is not an automaton, but can actually influence the outcome himself.

It's unfortunate that the TV coverage doesn't show when Meb and Boit separated from the pack.

They show up to about 24 minutes into the men's race and then there's a 16 minute gap while coverage goes to the second wave start, the wheelchair finish, and the women's race in succession.

Before the gap, Hall, Meb, Boit, and the two Ethiopians Desisa and Geneti are at the front.

When coverage comes back at 40 minutes into the race, Hall and Arciniaga are at the front with Geneti and Desisa in line behind Hall. The commentators are focused on Hall who they presume to be leading the race, but Meb and Boit are nowhere to be seen and judging from the 5k splits are in fact a few seconds ahead off camera.

Coverage goes to the women's race and comes back at 43 minutes with a shot showing Boit and Meb about 5 seconds in front of the main pack, still lead by Hall and Arciniaga.

In cycling, one way to get a rider away is to have two or more cooperating riders at the front of the pack and have the second or third in line subtly slow down, not so obviously that everyone goes around, but enough to let the first guy(s) gradually get a gap. If the pack isn't focused on what's going on at the very front eventually there is a few seconds gap and competitors are faced with the decision to work to close down the break or to sit in and wait for someone else to do so. It's possible that's what happened here.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.

For a breakaway like that to work, EVERYTHING had to go perfectly. Meb is the one who did the breakaway, kept up the pace, etc. He is the one who won the race.

But if any of the guys behind purposely kept the pace slower or even let Meb get his initial break in the first place then they played their little small part.

If Meb's lead had been just 5 seconds less I think he would have been caught. (Yes I know Meb won by 11 seconds). Chebet was mowing Meb down, but ran out of steam because Meb was so far in front, Chebet had to keep the throttle down and ran one too many miles likely in the 430s.

Meb won the race, but everything had to fall into place behind him nearly perfectly and it did. The American guys played a part in that.

Why would having the lead be 5 seconds less have made that much difference? To me, it seems like Chebet would have just run out of steam at a slightly different point. Meb seemed to have a good bit of fight in him.

How did you arrive at 5 seconds? How can you calculate so accurately? What about 4 seconds?

Also, for the lead to be 5 seconds less, Chebet would have had to run 5 seconds faster during the "easy" part of the race, which would have made it slightly harder for him at the end.

You're branded a racist because you receive income from site hits, and you and your racist mods allow racist threads stand for days on end.

rojo wrote:

Very sad.

-Rojo

PS.

It's funny last night as author Chris Lear told me, 'I bet no matter what you guys do - someone calls you racists tomorrow.'

He was right on the money.

wejo wrote:

I don't see what is so hard to understand about this...

But if any of the guys behind purposely kept the pace slower or even let Meb get his initial break in the first place then they played their little small part.

The key words are "if" and "little small part" because at the end of the day, you're still dealing with speculation of what might have been.

Now read the article you guys wrote... what about that says "little small part".

I think it's great what Ryan said, and if those guys followed it, that's awesome.

The way LRC reported it, was taking this cool gesture by Ryan and company, and turned it into a "scoop". The reporting of it wasn't great. It was a cool footnote to Mebs win, not a story on its own.

Giddy wrote:

[quote]

"A Year After The Bombings, There Was No Way An American Could Win Boston Alone – He Needed The Support Of Others"

When I read that one I laughed so hard my laptop almost fell.

I believe the civilized term for that would be " bosom-heaving, steamy treacle".

We will NEVER know what the outcome would have been had the guys with the best PRs went with MEB.

Such speculation takes away from what MEB did.

MEB won because he ran the best race.

If the slow pace was such a big factor why was there not a mass finish of Runners with too much left in the tank ?

Who knows just how much FASTER MEB could have run. He was able to respond well enough to shut down Chebet.

Take a good look at Rod Dixon 1983 New York. He was 2+ minutes behind Geoff Smith with just a few miles left and he RAN HIM DOWN