Riddle me this, weakermind...do you think NB would be excited for one of their athletes to rabbit a Nike athlete to the AR in the 800? Probably not.
You wouldn't open NB Pizza & Pasta only to also make deliveries for your competitor, Phil's Knight-time Slices.
SUB2:00FAT wrote:
Riddle me this, weakermind...do you think NB would be excited for one of their athletes to rabbit a Nike athlete to the AR in the 800? Probably not.
You wouldn't open NB Pizza & Pasta only to also make deliveries for your competitor, Phil's Knight-time Slices.
Haha
And to the other guy zzzxzzxz or whatever 1:18 is slow and not indicative of anything.
49.5/26 would be a 1:15.5 which is completely different to 1:18. That's as bizzare as the guy that said we wouldn't be criticising 'if he ran 1:43'.
I know a prominent ncaa runner who has run 1:14 and 1:15 in a time trial with a rolling start in late fall at the end of “XC” and his Pr is 1:46 low.
1:18 isn’t slow. But it’s definitely not even a good TT for BB. 24-25-28 is not super encouraging. 1:16 high for a 1:43 guy would have been more in line what you keep claiming.
weakermind wrote:
why is it you keep saying 1:18 is slow?
when i was in college our top guys would run 1:21-22 and run 1:48...and your saying boris should have been back at 1:21 and got dead last anyway?
1:18 is fast and your not fast.
i ran 1:18 once, and that was with coming through 49 mid....i dont care what you say, 1:18 is not moving slow
oh almost forgot
EPO AND PEDs DONT WORK!!!!!
1:22 is very slow for a 1:48 guy. Very slow. 1:20 is what 1:50 guys run every year.
So if you believe 1:22 is what a 1:48 guy runs, and you ran 1:18 (whilst being a complete nobody I might add) then you presumably ran 1:44?
1:18 is a slow 600m time trial for a 1:43 guy. Please get over it.
Boris went through 600 in 1:17 on his way to winning world indoors.
Korir ran 1:14 this year.
Why are you typing in caps like a child?
Dude it was an outdoor time trial. Not indoor. 2.5 turns instead of 5.5...the outdoor record is 1:12 and NEVER run.
U said yourself you think he started training in October. That’s 4 months. And 1:22 is comically slow for a 1:48 guy. Robby Andrews ran 1:22 for his LAST 600 of a 1000 in HS and ran 1:49 indoors. First kid ever under 1:50.
1:18 is equal to a 1:14 rolling start? What’s your deal man?
Guys who run 1:44 virtually NEVER run 1:18 thru the 6. That’d mean they sped back up in the last 200. Which very very very rarely happens.
Can you do me a favor and check what worlds this year if you don’t know what 800s were won in 1:44. Brazier is a world indoor champ in a time that wouldn’t be top 3-4 this year.
Your posts are just out of control. What race EVER goes out in 1:22.0 or slower and ends 1:48.9 or faster? Virtually NEVER. those are ridiculous 800 splits. Very very few people run even splits which that implies. 1:22.0 is 27.33 which gets you a 1:48.33 if done totally equal. Very rare
rojo wrote:
What a beast.
And how about Boris Berian. What balls. Hasn't raced in like forever and he's go the guts to go out in 50.28. Gotta respect that.
Why would anyone "gotta respect" a professional runner so horribly misjudging his race?
well i saw it happen year after year in D2 but yeah you tell me how dumb i am, oh and please let me know what the results were from these big races, im so dumb i dont know how to read
not sure but i think the winning time JUST LAST F*CKING YEAR was 1:44, but its prob 1:42 cause im a dummy
I know that...I wrote that...did you not say in one of your deleted posts “what high level 800s are ever won in 1:44 these days”
Maybe it was another guy who thinks Boris did a great job with his race tactics.
This is going in circles. (Btw, Nick symmonds 1:13.9 standing start 600m time trial before Olympics) symmonds is NOT a speed based 800 runner. Not even close. He’s a 3:34 1500 guy in one of very few attempts at the distance.
If you don’t think outdoors, a ton of 1:43 800 guys can run 1:13 point to 1:14 point, you’re nuts. He ran 1:42.95 which is .39 faster than Berian. He easily would be would be on the faster side of 1:13.9 outdoors.
What is your exact point here to clarify. A lot of your points and examples are half baked.
Do you think he purposely ran an all out 600, ran well in it, and jogged it in? And he cut a deal with DB beforehand to do this for him?
zxcxcv wrote:
That he managed to hang on to 600m in 1:18 indicates that he absolutely did the right thing here. Since this wasn't nationals or worlds, placing as high as possible was not particularly important. This was a rust buster and he wanted to go close to pr race pace as long as possible. 600m indoors in 1:18 does that. It prepares him for what he needs to do down the road when he is in shape. Race specific training, not training at significantly slower than goal race pace. He wants to get to the point where that 50/28 or, better yet, 49.5/26, is comfortable and he's got to run them to get there.
Someone who gets it^.
Yes, running 600 on something near ACTUAL RACE PACE is better preparation for Berian than running a damn 52/55 1:47 or whatever. Coming 5th vs 6th is irrelevant.
I keep saying this but ex-runner and his ilk can't process it.
ex-runner wrote:
Wow, aside from the personal insults and you obviously posting under two unregistered handles to back your own argument, you haven't really made any point whatsoever.
If he intended to run a 600m time trial then I have a few questions:
1. Why did he run so slow (1:18)?
2. Why did he finish the race?
3. Why didn't he enter a 600m rather than an 800m?
Why didn't he go out in 48 or 49 if there are no negatives to going out as hard as possible? 800m races outdoors have opened that fast in the past.
1. I am only using one handle. Believing that multiple people couldn't possibly disagree with you is a sign you may be delusional. Think about it.
2. "Why did he run so slow (1:18)?"
Because, for the Nth time, he wasn't trying to run the perfect 800 or the perfect 600. He was running on the schedule that is relevant to him: pointed toward 1:44 indoors, which basically requires a 50-point opening.
2. "Why did he finish the race?"
Because he has guts. Because there is value to finishing no matter what, rather than building a mindset that includes DNF as an option. Because he gets paid to finish. Because he is an NB athlete at an NB meet and has pride that doesn't allow him to just walk off. Anybody could come up with 100 reasonable answers to this.
3. "Why didn't he enter a 600m rather than an 800m?"
Sorry, I didn't see a 600 on the NBIGP schedule, did you? I bet he wishes there was!
4. "Why didn't he go out in 48 or 49 if there are no negatives to going out as hard as possible?"
Are you dense? A 48 would have no relevance to his race situation, either. By that idiot logic he could sprint a 45 and see what happens. Which obviously he didn't and wouldn't do. He ran 400 at almost exactly pace for his PR 800 effort.
Would he have preferred to rig at 700 rather than 550, or not to rig at all? OBVIOUSLY. But the goal wasn't simply to not rig in the best time with zero risk of rig. It was clearly to get after a legit race pace.
actual 800 runner wrote:
zxcxcv wrote:
That he managed to hang on to 600m in 1:18 indicates that he absolutely did the right thing here. Since this wasn't nationals or worlds, placing as high as possible was not particularly important. This was a rust buster and he wanted to go close to pr race pace as long as possible. 600m indoors in 1:18 does that. It prepares him for what he needs to do down the road when he is in shape. Race specific training, not training at significantly slower than goal race pace. He wants to get to the point where that 50/28 or, better yet, 49.5/26, is comfortable and he's got to run them to get there.
Someone who gets it^.
Yes, running 600 on something near ACTUAL RACE PACE is better preparation for Berian than running a damn 52/55 1:47 or whatever. Coming 5th vs 6th is irrelevant.
I keep saying this but ex-runner and his ilk can't process it.
OK .. so he ran hard for 600m. That doesn't take guts. If it's just a rust buster then theres nothing 'gutsy' about it. you're saying he ran to plan to gauge his current shape. That's not gutsy. That's perfectly common.
Geoffy like Lynn wrote:
I like how you use 400m sprinters as an example of coming out and running way off pace if they’re not in shape. 23/25 for a 44 second guy...no, u just don’t go to the meet.
Counter argument is when do you ever see an elite 5k runner enter a 5k when not ready, run 4000 meters on PR pace and then run a 3:30 last 1000.
Actually, 5000 runners not-infrequently DNF when they aren't able to sustain pace, and also often plan to simply run 3000-4000 then step off if they know it's not on. Especially early in the season. Do you even follow track?
Furthermore, your post shows how little you understand of 800-meter running. This is not a 5k where if you overcook it you slow down by 10-20s to the mile. If you overcook the 800 the result is that YOU CANNOT MOVE. There is simply not the same razor's edge of potentially not finishing (or finishing with a 16s+ 100m)!
wtfunny wrote:
OK .. so he ran hard for 600m. That doesn't take guts. If it's just a rust buster then theres nothing 'gutsy' about it. you're saying he ran to plan to gauge his current shape. That's not gutsy. That's perfectly common.
You see, while ex-runner thinks I am the same person as the guy saying it was a planned TT, that is actually not what I am saying. I know you are a thinking poster so I will back off and lay out my thinking here.
It's probably safe to say Berian knew that he likely wasn't going to smash a 1:44 in his first race back, but clearly he was resolved to get out at that pace regardless. Not as a 600 TT, but as a 1:44 800 attempt of sorts. Follow?
Like every 800 runner ever, he probably hit 400 feeling like it might happen. Somewhere between hitting two laps in 25-flat each and the third lap in 28-point (ouch!) it became clear that it was not going to happen, but he ran into it anyway. (To my knowledge Berian isn't a habitual DNFer.)
I'll agree, if you're in 1:47 shape and your absolute goal is time, the best possible move is of course something like a 52-second 400. OF COURSE IT IS. If you are in 16:00 shape, 3:12/k is the safe play. OF COURSE IT IS.
But if getting to 1:44 or 15:00 is an absolute must for you, and you have been there before, I can see the gutsy logic in rolling that 50-point or that 3:00 opening K.
I am amazed that people are sitting around finger-wagging with this "gee Boris, doncha know a 2-3s positive split is better than a 10s positive split?" This isn't your high-school athlete trying to run a 2:10 PR.
So Berian knew he wasn't in 1:44 shape, but wanted to try to run 1:44 anyway? So he tried, and got hosed?
All fair enough .. not necessarily a common approach, but each to his/her own.
But that's not 'gutsy'. Any more so than actually being in 1:44 shape and running your legs off and hitting 1:44 is.
A runner like him hitting 400m in 50+ isn't a big deal. Hitting his next 400m in sub 54 is.
There are 2 separate issues:
i) badly misjudging a race
ii) running a 'gutsy' race
We can argue all day about whether he misjudged it. Only Borian can answer that.
But what's gutsy about it?
wtfunny wrote:
So Berian knew he wasn't in 1:44 shape, but wanted to try to run 1:44 anyway? So he tried, and got hosed?
All fair enough .. not necessarily a common approach, but each to his/her own.
But that's not 'gutsy'. Any more so than actually being in 1:44 shape and running your legs off and hitting 1:44 is.
A runner like him hitting 400m in 50+ isn't a big deal. Hitting his next 400m in sub 54 is.
There are 2 separate issues:
i) badly misjudging a race
ii) running a 'gutsy' race
We can argue all day about whether he misjudged it. Only Borian can answer that.
But what's gutsy about it?
Fair question. Here’s my take.
Usually in the 800 when you think you are in PR shape and run like it, there is a SMALL chance you overcook it and truly, truly blow up. Not a 3s or even a 5-6s positive split but 10+s, literally almost falling over.
Starting a race with a plan that involves a LARGE probability that happens is the gutsy part.
Actual 800 runner. At least your stuff makes sense. Weakmind is all over the place.
Still disagree, think it was a bit of an overestimation on berians part. And like U mentioned, a small mismanagement in energy in an 8 and it costs you multiple seconds which is a big deal.
Not sure of why there is so much talk of a 1:44 though. He won worlds in 1:45.8 going out in 49.7. Indoors, it’s super effective to get out hard and get the rail. Especially if you’re a 4-8 guy like him.
1:44.99 would be an American record, as I’m sure you know. No way he thought he was running 1:44 and a runner like him to run something like that needs to be out in 1:16 point at least to run a 1:44 anything. The only 28 can be the last one and it’d have to be 28 low.
I’ve never criticized him for going out in first. Or fast. But in your first race in 18 months or whatever, 50.2 is ridiculous. And it showed on the fourth lap.
And as far as the 5k goes, there are VERY few truly elite 5k guys that do anything similar whatsoever to what Berian did on a longer scale. The example I gave was specific to Chelimo because he is basically a 12:55 guy that hasn’t found a 12:55 race yet. No other reason than the splits are easy. He isn’t gonna show up to a race and do something like this.
I watched it live. Berians last 250 looked rough (obviously. First to last does that) but he was slowing down so rapidly, DB passed him in like 3 strides. If he went 51.0-26.xx and ran a 1:17 and then kinda jogged in, id consider the possibility of this being a HARD 600 effort with little to not regard for the last 200. But, this was rigging up because he pressed too hard the second lap. His first lap was fine. 24 high. (He went it in 23.93 at worlds, which is ridiculous).
And I just hate the guts thing for taking it out super hard. That Kenyan dude who ran 48 for the first lap a couple years ago at juniors...that’s not guts. That’s stupid. This was either a bit of a bad idea, or it was a miscalculation by him (even possibly caused by feeling good 200 in, by “modest” first 200 split by his standards).
Either way, not a huge deal. This was started cause rojo said this was pure guts and chez was a kinda ordinary performance.
wtfunny wrote:
So Berian knew he wasn't in 1:44 shape, but wanted to try to run 1:44 anyway? So he tried, and got hosed?
All fair enough .. not necessarily a common approach, but each to his/her own.
But that's not 'gutsy'. Any more so than actually being in 1:44 shape and running your legs off and hitting 1:44 is.
A runner like him hitting 400m in 50+ isn't a big deal. Hitting his next 400m in sub 54 is.
There are 2 separate issues:
i) badly misjudging a race
ii) running a 'gutsy' race
We can argue all day about whether he misjudged it. Only Borian can answer that.
But what's gutsy about it?
Berian implies in his interview that he misjudged it but these bellends keep going on like he had some master plan he's set out using his third eye.
He says he had no idea what shape he is in. He says those words.
He said he likes to take it out from the front and would always take it out from the front no matter what, aka stupid.
Even Rudisha let someone else take out the 800m in Rio when he realised they had gone out too hard.
He never says anything about a 600m TT, helping Brazier to break a record or anything.
And anyone that thinks 1:18 is a good 600m TT for a 1:43/1:44/1:45 guy knows very little about the sport. 1:16 is more like it. Absolute nobodies run 1:18 every year.
A 600m time trial isn't the pace you can hold for 800m, it's a 600m run.
Purdy equivalencies:
1:18.00 600m = 1:49.45 800m
1:14.90 600m = 1:45.00 800m
A 1:18 600m for a 1:45 800m runner looks like ~95% effort.
rekrunner wrote:
Purdy equivalencies:
1:18.00 600m = 1:49.45 800m
1:14.90 600m = 1:45.00 800m
A 1:18 600m for a 1:45 800m runner looks like ~95% effort.
And a 95% effort is a training rep. 1:55 for a 1:50 runner is a slow heat time.
Geoffy likes the older Olsen twin. wrote:
Actual 800 runner. At least your stuff makes sense. Weakmind is all over the place.
Still disagree, think it was a bit of an overestimation on berians part. And like U mentioned, a small mismanagement in energy in an 8 and it costs you multiple seconds which is a big deal.
Not sure of why there is so much talk of a 1:44 though. He won worlds in 1:45.8 going out in 49.7. Indoors, it’s super effective to get out hard and get the rail. Especially if you’re a 4-8 guy like him.
1:44.99 would be an American record, as I’m sure you know. No way he thought he was running 1:44 and a runner like him to run something like that needs to be out in 1:16 point at least to run a 1:44 anything. The only 28 can be the last one and it’d have to be 28 low.
I’ve never criticized him for going out in first. Or fast. But in your first race in 18 months or whatever, 50.2 is ridiculous. And it showed on the fourth lap.
And as far as the 5k goes, there are VERY few truly elite 5k guys that do anything similar whatsoever to what Berian did on a longer scale. The example I gave was specific to Chelimo because he is basically a 12:55 guy that hasn’t found a 12:55 race yet. No other reason than the splits are easy. He isn’t gonna show up to a race and do something like this.
I watched it live. Berians last 250 looked rough (obviously. First to last does that) but he was slowing down so rapidly, DB passed him in like 3 strides. If he went 51.0-26.xx and ran a 1:17 and then kinda jogged in, id consider the possibility of this being a HARD 600 effort with little to not regard for the last 200. But, this was rigging up because he pressed too hard the second lap. His first lap was fine. 24 high. (He went it in 23.93 at worlds, which is ridiculous).
And I just hate the guts thing for taking it out super hard. That Kenyan dude who ran 48 for the first lap a couple years ago at juniors...that’s not guts. That’s stupid. This was either a bit of a bad idea, or it was a miscalculation by him (even possibly caused by feeling good 200 in, by “modest” first 200 split by his standards).
Either way, not a huge deal. This was started cause rojo said this was pure guts and chez was a kinda ordinary performance.
This is a really good post. And I will agree that young Kenyan splitting 48 in a championship was not guts but stupid. Nobody AT ALL should be splitting 48, probably, and WC is a time when of course a runner wants to put down their best race.
When I say there was some guts there, I'm not exactly applauding Berian for splitting 50.2 when there is no way he could back it up. Maybe I am playing devil's advocate a bit with some people here not seeming to get the element of logic in there.
We have probably all seen people go out to hard and eat it as a result, often most visibly in the 800. I am just making the distinction between a HS guy who thinks he can run 1:50 and splits 55/65 for a 2:00, and Berian who darn well KNEW (I think) he wouldn't be closing comfortably after that 50-point but ran basically his WC race pattern anyway. (Slower first lap and faster second, as you point out, but about the same to 400.)
