SEMENYA jogs 800m in 1:55

Metric Miler wrote:

Caster has a vagina and wants to be called a girl. What is your problem with that? Her biceps scare you?

His vagina's probably about the same size as yours.

Metric Miler wrote:

I'll just go grow some tits and you will have no problem with me competing in Rio as a woman, I presume?

No but if I was as stupid as you then that's what I'd think.

She has internal testicles, testosterone is made in the testes. surgically she could become a girl or a guy.

I doubt we'll ever see an intersex division. I don't think there are enough athletes to make it worthwhile - many would never risk the scorn, and even of all the people who are intersex, how many are going to be competing in high level athletics anyway. We're talking intersex - internal testes for example; not just simply higher testosterone levels than most females. And, I highly doubt that the IOC and the IAAF would simply approve such a division just because a few athletes have no viable division to complete in.

So, athletes like Semenya will realistically just be left out unless they choose to compete against men. It's unfortunate for the individual athlete who had nothing to do with their condition, but it's fair to the women athletes.

fatguy wrote:

since they fail to consider either Semenya’s humanity or her right as an elite athlete to compete in the Olympics

I don't think anyone has a right to compete in the Olympics. We have rules. If you are 12, you can't compete in the marathon at the Olympics.

There's nothing wrong with saying, "If you have internal testicles, you can't compete in the women's division."

If Semenya wants to create her own series of track meets for intersex people, she has that right. Currently, track and field has two divisions. Male and female and she'd be totally uncompetitive in one and doesn't really fit in the other. Yes her gender is female but while she doesn't have a penis, she has testicles - hence even you called her intersex.

Metric Miler wrote:

LossSucker wrote:

She is not a woman. It is enormously disrespectful to call her "she". There are three pronouns in English. We've ruled out "he" and "she".

Since Semenya insists on going out on one of the most public stages and unfairly taking advantage of CAS's ill-advised ruling, criticizing Semenya is justified.

No.

Semenya is a she. In English, we do not use the personal pronouns to describe biological sex, including physiological features such as testes or levels of testosterone. That is absurd.

In English we use the personal pronouns to describe gender in a social setting. Gender is one's personal expression. You cannot decide someone's gender for them.

You are using the English language poorly, and being disrespectful, Grandad.

Moron, we use pronouns for gender and sex. This might be contrary to your royal, archaic grammar dogma. Wittgenstein's philosophy of language certainly refutes your rigidity. Learn how English is used.

The OP is correct. Gender refers to what the person "identifies" as. Sex refers to the organs they have. It's not that hard a concept. These words are not interchangeable. This is the view of all social and hard sciences. You can't nitpick the use of pronouns because they are used to describe both gender and sex (as you have so pigheadedly stated).

DearLord, Impart some reason wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:

No.

Semenya is a she. In English, we do not use the personal pronouns to describe biological sex, including physiological features such as testes or levels of testosterone. That is absurd.

In English we use the personal pronouns to describe gender in a social setting. Gender is one's personal expression. You cannot decide someone's gender for them.

You are using the English language poorly, and being disrespectful, Grandad.

Moron, we use pronouns for gender and sex. This might be contrary to your royal, archaic grammar dogma. Wittgenstein's philosophy of language certainly refutes your rigidity. Learn how English is used.

Activated his testes.

[quote]Gendersex wrote:

The OP is correct. Gender refers to what the person "identifies" as. Sex refers to the organs they have. It's not that hard a concept. These words are not interchangeable. This is the view of all social and hard sciences. You can't nitpick the use of pronouns because they are used to describe both gender and sex (as you have so pigheadedly stated)./quote]

You can nitpick all you want, because the dictionary does the same thing.

The bottom line is that the terminology gender is simply what the person wishes to be, but nothing to do with what the person actually IS, and what the person actually is, IS the only quantifiable criteria. One's choice of gender has no meaning.

americanenglishman wrote:

He really did jog, while holding his breath. He's too scared to bust a nut and lay down a WR.

I do sort of have that feeling. S/he just doesn't want to throw down from the front, on all cylinders, because that would make even more obvious what is already painfully obvious: that something is wrong, and that some intervention is needed in this travesty.

rojo wrote:

fatguy wrote:

since they fail to consider either Semenya’s humanity or her right as an elite athlete to compete in the Olympics

I don't think anyone has a right to compete in the Olympics. We have rules. If you are 12, you can't compete in the marathon at the Olympics.

There's nothing wrong with saying, "If you have internal testicles, you can't compete in the women's division."

If Semenya wants to create her own series of track meets for intersex people, she has that right. Currently, track and field has two divisions. Male and female and she'd be totally uncompetitive in one and doesn't really fit in the other. Yes her gender is female but while she doesn't have a penis, she has testicles - hence even you called her intersex.

I agree with every point you've made. I'm intrigued by the way in which the term "diversity," a shibboleth of the left, seems to go out the window when the subject is allowing Semanya to trash the women's field. Let's actually HAVE diversity. Let's establish an intersex division, and let's put Semanya in the Hall of Fame as a pioneer! I'm serious. Let's actually have diversity, rather than insisting on shoehorning everybody into two rigid divisions marked "boys" and "girls."

rojo wrote:

fatguy wrote:

since they fail to consider either Semenya’s humanity or her right as an elite athlete to compete in the Olympics

I don't think anyone has a right to compete in the Olympics. We have rules. If you are 12, you can't compete in the marathon at the Olympics.

There's nothing wrong with saying, "If you have internal testicles, you can't compete in the women's division."

If Semenya wants to create her own series of track meets for intersex people, she has that right. Currently, track and field has two divisions. Male and female and she'd be totally uncompetitive in one and doesn't really fit in the other. Yes her gender is female but while she doesn't have a penis, she has testicles - hence even you called her intersex.

If he/she wouldn't be competing against guys what would he/she do?? I mean if caster raced guys in the 1:47-1:50 range do u think it would bring the best out of him? Like do u think caster would try to run with them. I'm curious how far this thing can be pushed. Can it kick with Robby Andrews I mean I would want to see that

Rojo, I totally respect your point of view. But the NY Times article on Chand,

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html

which I'm sure you saw, brings in another perspective. Poor, running her one apparent way out of a miserable life, and then completely unbeknownst to her, she tests as hyperandrogenic, not only eliminating (until the CAS decision) her running career, but also shaming her with her family and community.

I'm not saying she deserves a right to compete in the Olympics, but why not the Diamond League, and if there are a number of people like Chand and Semenya, maybe award separate prize money while running in women's races, to be fair to the majority of women who are not hyperandrogenic. So Ludlow would have won more money today--much more satisfying.

Again, I'm not talking "rights" but just fairness, and allowing everybody to compete but still clarifying via equal prize money that there are separate categories seems the most fair to me.

RossTucker wrote:

In the interests of trying to offer discussion and debate on this issue, an interview I did with Joanna Harper recently:

http://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

Thanks for that link and your post. Both are thoughtful and thought-provoking. A couple of questions:

1) Is it widely know exactly what is going on genetically, hormonally and physically with Semenya? If so, how? Were her test/exam results leaked?

2) How about the other 800 runners who are the subject of rumors? Is there any evidence beside what we can see?

3) Any predictions as to what the rules will look like when all is said and done? Your framing of the biology/performance link makes your policy recommendation seem sensible, almost natural. But there are some intersex heavy-hitters (Myron Genel, for example) who deny the link, and say any measurement of T levels is scientifically indefensible. They trot out the "basketball league for short guys" trope.

Why did Semenya ONLY run 1:55?

RossTucker wrote:

In the interests of trying to offer discussion and debate on this issue, an interview I did with Joanna Harper recently:

http://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

Any thoughts on the NYTimes article cited above?

"I had no idea that the science of sex differences is extremely contested and has shifted over time..."

Chand looks much more female than Semenya - that's just an observation, I know biological sex isn't based on looks.

Is Chand actually intersex though? Hyperandroidism does not have to result in (or be the result of) being intersex.

You could tell Cram was straining not to let us know what he really felt about the situation. Instead he said something along the lines that Semenya cannot be beaten and no tactics will change that.

Everything about Semenya seems masculine. The way her hair is styled, the way she poses with a muscular shot after the race, and her size.

By the way - these three aren't the only ones causing controversy. There's a 100m female sprinter who qualified for the olympics who is also considered to be more naturally testosterone enhanced.

More of these types of females are going to come out to athletics and I think we need a separate division for females with X% more testosterone than what we consider normal.

[quote]Metric Miler wrote:

. Gender is one's personal expression. You cannot decide someone's gender for them.

[quote]

Caster was raised as a female by people who thought that was the more appropriate.

Do you really think Caster decided that?