Ryan Hall-- Nice Job Helping Meb Win; Rojo - Nice Reporting

Meb crossed the HM checkpoint at 64:21. Chebet was at 64:52. By that point, Arciniaga, Eggleston (65:05), Hall and Morgan (further behind) were back main chase group. Arciniaga and Eggleston both ran great races and improved their PBs on the day (to 2:11:47 and 2:11:57 respectively). Eggleston and Arciniago remained 6-9 seconds back from Chebet at 25k, while Meb's lead grew to 52 seconds (which confers with Rojo's story) while Hall dropped further back. So it's quite possible that the Americans "talked" about not pushing the pace, however: 1) None of the Americans seemed to be an actual factor in the chase group at any time 2) Why would high 2:11 guys shooting for PBs lead the group after passing the HM at low 65s? Where was the "team sacrifice" here, or shift away from reasonable personal tactics? 3) Hall was well out of the picture by the time Meb's lead was 31 seconds and growing. 4) Why would Dennis Kimmetto with his 2:06:11 training partner from Kapng'etuny Frankline Chepkwonii (who would finish the race third) at his side, or any of the other studs in the group for that matter, base their pace control on Arciniaga and Eggleston? Besides that, well great story! But I'd rather congratulate the other Americans for their great personal races and PBs (great day for all besides Hall) than for "helping secure an American win", which is quite an embellishment.

Exactly.

Not so big Mazungo wrote:

Meb crossed the HM checkpoint at 64:21. Chebet was at 64:52. By that point, Arciniaga, Eggleston (65:05), Hall and Morgan (further behind) were back main chase group. . .

The gap initially that Hall and Arciniaga allegedly helped to form happened between 10k and 15k. How is any of what you've written relevant?

The video coverage of the men's race is non-existent when Meb and Boit went off the front and sparse thereafter, but when they do check in around 1:10 and 1:13 in the coverage Hall and Arciniaga are at the front of the chase pack and the rest seem to be content to sit on them at that point.

Oh so when Ryan Hall fails, it is turned into a \"white american savior sacrificed his glory to let the black man win.\" story. Super lame.

HUGE props to Meb, Ryan, and the rest of the top American guys. It's about time we start seeing these tactics used; Africans have been playing these games since as long as I have watched distance running. So great to see them get a taste of their own medicine. Brilliant, Ryan! So glad to see him healthy and RACING. Hoping Meb has one or two good ones left in him.

Come on wrote:

Poor Brojos, how people CALL THEM RACIST when all they do is allow nonstop white supremacist threads and posts on this board. How unfair!

Rojo, if you don't want to be called racist why don't you try taking seriously his appalling the things you allow on this board are. A decent anti-racist would put in measures to minimize and do their best to stop threads like "black chimps do etc." and the endless stuff we see on here. People think you're racist because you seem to revel in or at least passively support racism. Don't whine when you get tagged with your own actions.

Good post

I can't help but think if Hall hadn't been having a horrible day he would have been much less likely to give up his race chances like that

Easy to say stay back here, when it was clear that was about all he could do.

Much more difficult if one was having a great day and thought they had a shot to win and then give that up.

Course even with all that,

If one assumes the others were going to make a push to catch Meb, it is just smart racing to sit back and suck in behind them.

All in all I find it troubling for all the attention Hall is getting for basically having a horrible marathon with no chance in winning.

I've never been a Ryan Hall fan until now. Not like he cares or should care, but he earned my respect with this. I love the precedent this sets and hope the American men can run like a real team more often.

what I think wrote:

I can't help but think if Hall hadn't been having a horrible day he would have been much less likely to give up his race chances like that

The tactic still has merit if Hall was having a good day. If he lets a gap form that worries someone else enough that they'll take up pace making duties for the group then that he can tuck in while the de facto pacemaker burns more energy. This is a very common team tactic in cycling. That said, when he's on, Hall seems to like front running, arguably to a fault. It would also make more sense if the were running into a headwind making the cost of leading much higher.

All in all I find it troubling for all the attention Hall is getting for basically having a horrible marathon with no chance in winning.

I doubt he's getting much attention beyond this board. If anything I find it refreshing to have an actual racing tactics thread in amongst the usual drivel.

It would be interesting to hear from Boit about his race, particularly whether he was there specifically to support Meb as he had a big role in launching Meb's attack. On one hand he's a late entry from the Mammoth Track Club and he did set pace for Meb for awhile, but he didn't bury himself and drop out as one would expect from a pure pacer.

You also have to wonder what the heck the favorites were thinking sitting in the group until far too late.

The Kenyan's do this all the time as in bike racing, but it appears to be too complicated for letsrun people to understand.

[quote]what I think wrote:

I can't help but think if Hall hadn't been having a horrible day he would have been much less likely to give up his race chances like that

[quote]

Totally agree.

Also (and maybe this has been brought up already), I'm not even buying the whole concept that there is any obligation whatsoever to help your countryman win. I think it would be totally unfair to expect a runner with something to prove, somebody trying to establish themselves - guys like Arciniage and Eggleston - to sacrifice any part of their race for some half-assed plan to let somebody else win. Why should they? I think it's a given that every runner in the race is, and should be, primarily concerned with their own performance. If you can help someone without affecting your own fate, that's fine.

And I wish people would quit comparing marathoning to cycling. They are both endurance events, and that's pretty much where the similarity events. Cycling race strategies are mostly dictated by the huge drafting effects present in cycling. These effects are negligible in running. And cyclists go into a race with a specific role on the team and instructions from leadership. They are not letting people go, and declining to chase, out of any altruistic motive.

Maybe someone can explain how any of these Americans with 2:11 marathon PR's were going to keep up with or go after Meb who was on pace to run 2:08?

Bobby1 wrote:

The Kenyan's do this all the time as in bike racing, but it appears to be too complicated for letsrun people to understand.

This.

What is it about LRC that attracts so many people who are wholly incapable of nuanced thought? I'm hoping that it's just the same couple of guys posting and not any indication of the general population (not likely).

Maybe it is just that many have fixated at the binary mental capacity it took to put in a lot of miles; run/not run, right/not right, good/not good. Come on people, time to rise above the limitations of your perceptual inclinations and think. For the love of God people, think.

Jefe in the CO wrote:

Bobby1 wrote:

The Kenyan's do this all the time as in bike racing, but it appears to be too complicated for letsrun people to understand.

This.

What is it about LRC that attracts so many people who are wholly incapable of nuanced thought? I'm hoping that it's just the same couple of guys posting and not any indication of the general population (not likely).

Maybe it is just that many have fixated at the binary mental capacity it took to put in a lot of miles; run/not run, right/not right, good/not good. Come on people, time to rise above the limitations of your perceptual inclinations and think. For the love of God people, think.

I'll repeat myself: I wish people would quit comparing marathoning to cycling. They are both endurance events, and that's pretty much where the similarity events. Cycling race strategies are mostly dictated by the huge drafting effects present in cycling. These effects are negligible in running. And cyclists go into a race with a specific role on the team and instructions from leadership. They are not letting people go, and declining to chase, out of any altruistic motive.

Or to put it simply: cycling is a team sport. You have a contractual arrangement to support your team in the way the team director deems fit.

And another thing, a lot of people seem to take it as a given that you SHOULD run for the benefit of your countrymen. Says who? A couple of guys with possibly the only shot they'll ever have of placing well shouldn't be obligated to allow the vague patriotic notions of others limit their ability to race. That would be un-American.

Meb's lead on Chebet at 15k was 11 seconds.

So 11 seconds at 15k are what clinched it for Meb?

This is from Rojo's original post:

"Craig Leon told a similar story.

I remember at one point it was kind of yo-yoing and I was falling off the lead pack and then they’d come back. I think it was maybe halfway or a little past halfway and it had slowed kind of considerably and Jason (Hartmann) and I were kind of moving our way through the pack and were just going to maintain pace (and keep moving up), and at one point, Ryan he looked at both of us, and he was like, ‘Let’s give Meb a little bit of distance. I think he’s up there with JB. (Josphat Boit).’

So we kept it slow. I don’t know if that did anything to help. But those guys had to work to catch Meb. I think Ryan was really smart to (think to) be able to say that (in the middle of the race)."

So yeah, what I wrote is pretty relevant.

There's no obligation at all to do that. And that's why I'm so proud of Ryan and the rest of Team USA. Selflessness and awareness. What a great day for American distance running and hopefully a change in racing strategy for the future! Definitely a big Hall fan now.

Not a Fatty wrote:

Maybe someone can explain how any of these Americans with 2:11 marathon PR's were going to keep up with or go after Meb who was on pace to run 2:08?

They would have gone after him and possibly caught him. Little chance they would have kept up with for very long. That is what makes Ryan's tactic smart in my book. He knew Meb was the only American in that race that could get the win.

I don't know why people are complaining about it. I haven't heard a single top American runner complain about being held back by Ryan. In fact, they were not 'held back' by Ryan. They had no obligation whatsoever to listen to Ryan. Obviously, they thought it was good idea also. And to boot, most of them got PRs, which probably would not have happened had they attempted to catch Meb.

Not So Big Mazungo wrote:

Meb's lead on Chebet at 15k was 11 seconds.

So 11 seconds at 15k are what clinched it for Meb?

Clinched it, no. Opened the window of opportunity, yes. Meb still needed a career day and he needed the remaining favorites to continue worrying about each other rather than him.

This is from Rojo's original post:

"Craig Leon told a similar story.

I remember at one point it was kind of yo-yoing and I was falling off the lead pack and then they’d come back. I think it was maybe halfway or a little past halfway . . .

If your point is that Leon is misremembering the point of the race the move happened then I agree.

Ryan Hall may have spoken to Leon, Hartmann, etc, but they weren't in the lead pack at that point anyway.

I think Leon is off slightly in his narrative. Going by the splits page on the results website, he was 5 to 7 seconds behind Hall from 20k to halfway (65:21 to Leon, 65:14 for Hall). By this time, the chasers were already a good 100-200 meters ahead (for ex, 64:51 for Geneti, 64:52 for Chebet). So if Leon caught Hall sometime between 21k and 25k, when Hall supposedly gave him his advice, he was already too far behind to make any difference! It's not like he was going to suddenly make up 20 or 30 seconds on the guys ahead. By 25k Leon was just falling further behind the lead group (~40 seconds), so was well beyond having the ability to affect them at that point.

The point is, the guys Ryan Hall was talking to were already too far behind to do anything anyway!

So what did Hall actually say? "Don't go catching those guys who are out of contact and pulling away already"?

Verdict: Ryan Hall had no effect on the outcome.