Oslo Diamond League 2023 Live Thread (LetsRun.com Live Reaction Show at 4pm eastern)

But I know she is a woman. Just because she claims to not know she is a woman doesn't mean I should pretend to not know. She can deal with being called a she. I am sure she will be just fine.

well, i guess it makes sense that when THEY are in a race that is specifically for women, THEY are considered a woman for those moments.

a person who can't decide their sex is probably over thinking things a bit much, huh? Let the simple things in life be simple!

This response will apply to Chaul Pelimo's post as well.

Hiltz says nothing about their biological sex (nor is it any of our business), which is distinct from gender. Gender is a social construct and a way of categorizing and making sense of the many people we coexist with. In the United States in 2023, the genders of man and woman (which are, again, distinct from the biological male and female sexes) entail expectations that those who are that gender will fulfill certain broad social roles. There is massive variation within how we think of "men" and "women," and the meaning of these terms change all the time, but these terms carry social baggage and indicate something about someone's identity. Most of the time, your biological sex significantly determines which of these social categories you will most identify with, and most of us choose to use the one that matches our biological sex. That is to say that most biological males identify as men and most biological females identify as women. There's nothing wrong with this! But not everyone's identity fits with the gender that most "naturally" matches their biological sex.

Hiltz does not feel they conform with either of the social roles of man or woman, so they use they/them pronouns to denote this. They say nothing about their biological sex, and compete with other biological females (most of whom identify with the social category of woman) because of this.

Chaul Pelimo, Hiltz does not claim "to not know she is a woman." You have no idea how it feels to be Hiltz, and how she feels with regards to the social category of woman, so you do not know anything about her status as a woman. You might be able to reasonably assume that she is biologically female, but she does not deny that as far as I know. You are ignorant. You can deal with being called ignorant. I am sure you will be just fine.

high school xc coach, for the purposes of athletic competition, Hiltz is grouped with and competes with biological females, most of whom also identify as women. She is not trying to decide her sex, she is deciding her gender identity, which no one can do for them. The fact that she competes with other women tells us nothing about who they are and what it is like to be them. Their identity matches with neither the concept of man nor woman, therefore they are non-binary, and use they/them pronouns. Their athletic status has little to nothing to do with that fact.

If you want, I can explain the concepts of gender and social constructs further. It's pretty simple, and I also like to let the simple things in life be simple. I'm not sure either of you would be able to understand it, though.

Noooooooo...... I was there for that one. That decision was made in a timely fashion. Within minutes Jenebah had the U.S. flag draped around her neck as she did her victory lap around Heyward. Yet another USATF/Nike f'in travesty.

What is insulting is people like Oklahoma like who like to talk down to people thinking they are smarter than everyone else. YOU are not, you just think that you are. Why this site is filled with these arrogant people is beyond me.

and you say She over and over again. how disrespectful.

Interesting that she uses it about a half dozen times.

shoe tech deniers in shambles.

Everyone should have to run in Converse All Stars. Then they wouldn't be cheating by using SHOE TECHNOLOGY!!!!!!

Yeah, I screwed up. I am going to correct myself, apologize, and try not to do it again. As the announcers and all of us should.

Societal change isn't easy, and lots of us will screw up when it comes to pronouns. Doesn't mean we should give up on them or disparage their use.

Look, I completely understand the difference between gender and sex. In fact, sex is way more complicated than biological male vs female (heard of Semenya?). But as long as races are dubbed "1 Mile Men" and "1 Mile Woman" and Hiltz CHOOSES to participate in the latter one, Hiltz is running as a woman. The commentators may refer to each of the participants in that race as "she" for a number of reasons. They may not know the specifics of Hiltz's choice; or they may think that choice is irrelevant given that Hiltz chose to participate as a woman; or who knows what. Personally, I think we should get rid of pronouns. Let's just say the name of each person every time we refer to that person. That way, we will never impose our assumptions about gender and sex on others.

They come off as dicks. Both are probably super nice off camera tho.

That looked like standard fare from Bol but it was actually a breakthrough for her. That's easily the fastest she has ever covered the distance between hurdle 8 and finish. It was in the neighborhood of 15.4 to 15.5 seconds. For reference, if she had managed that split in Tokyo it would have been nearly a 3-way dead heat.

The fastest I remember previously was 15.78 from a meet late last year. Her norm is 15.9 to 16.0. I wish I could be more precise today but they screwed up the traditional camera angle. Instead of already shifting to the frontward camera angle on 8 they were still using the shot from behind and overhead. I stopped it several times and the clock was always 36.8 or 36.9 when her lead left leg covered the barrier. Hence the 15.4 to 15.5 coming home.

In real time when Bol reached 8 I saw it was roughy 36.8 so I expected something like 52.6 to 52.8. Then it was obvious she looked remarkably strong down the stretch. The 15.5 isn't Sydney territory. I remember as low as 15.28. But it's very promising for Bol. Essentially this is what she announced a month or two ago, that she hoped the 14 strides would enable the same speed but in an easier fashion, leaving more in the tank. I had my doubts until today's finish.

Of course, one reason Bol is coming home fast is that she remains very tentative early. If she reaches 8 at 36.8 in Budapest she'll have several ahead of her, not merely Sydney. Sydney got to 8 in an amazing 35.0 last year in Eugene. Bol was 36.3.

Bol is out in tentative fashion because it's obvious she doesn't fully trust her right lead at high speed. Today hurdle 2 looked good but on 6 and especially on 4 her torso tilted awkwardly left while going over the barrier using the right lead.

I thought the women's mile was the most interesting race today because it's the first time we've seen Birke Haylom in a senior meet as best in class. How will she approach it?

It was fantastic that the Ethiopian ran like an Ethiopian. Quickly to the front, behind the pacer after 300. None of this stalking late from 4th or 5th place garbage, like the regulation and ruination of American middle distance running for the past half century. Haylom last year at worlds U20 did stalk from 5th. She got away with it. But it required shifting out well into lane 2 with 200 remaining to pass Addy Wiley plus two Kenyans and a fellow Ethiopian. She was obviously much the best. The poor tactics turned a walkover into a tight victory.

I'm not sure if the Ethiopian coaches talked to her or Haylom figured it out on her own. Regardless, it was fantastic today. Haylom gave up some of the lead late. I'm sure she would have been wrongly criticized on track forums like this if the outcome had reversed.

Meanwhile with the front running strategy not only do you immediately eliminate 80-90% of the field into never seen again irrelevance, but you also steadily build your foundation and how fast you can go early. Today's late decline turns into more rapid and powerful front running dominance tomorrow.

She'll face a challenging balancing act on pace decisions when she simply can't keep up with Kipyegon and Tsegay, etc.

Haylom needs to smile more and greet her competitors. I saw that last year and it showed again today. She didn't turn towards anyone after the race. Only Sanford the pacer approached her. That led me to believe Haylom must already have the reputation of somewhat cold and reserved. Haylom did not acknowledge Sanford despite a pat on the back.

Maybe youthful shy. The women's 1500/mile group wants to act like a sorority, as we witnessed 2 weeks ago. When Jessica Hull isn't quickly approaching and hugging you I have to wonder what's going on.

I agree this works for some people, but also, unless you are head and shoulders above the rest of the race (which she may be) it is a risky gamble. Sit and kick is popular for a reason!

Just depends on what type of athlete you are.

And like you point out, she may have turned to the technique that produces the best results for her. If this is so and it's the first time she has run like this in this level of race (not sure) then we could expect a lot of improvement from her. Well, not that we can't expect that anyway.

All of your examples are natural because in them, the 'narrator' doesn't know who the subject is and they aren't there. When you do know/the person is present, it quickly becomes clumsy, jarring and confusing. And in a race especially, the default would be to assume that 'they' is referring to multiple people, e.g. a chasing pack or leading group. For example:

"Hiltz is making a big move here- they are catching up. They might not able to hold on to this pace but just watch them on this final bell. They're right there in their slipstream."

Contrast with:

"Hiltz is making a big move here- she is catching up. She might not able to hold on to this pace but just watch her on this final bell. She's right there in their slipstream."

Also...the entire concept of non binary is utterly regressive and relies on tired stereotypes that we transcended decades ago so there's that. Ask a non-binary person to really *actually* describe what they're identifying 'out' of, and (once they've been extremely vague for a while) you won't be waiting long to hear something old fashioned and sexist.

As someone noted earlier in this thread, Haylom trains with Tsegay presently.

There are official per-hurdle splits here. It says she covered hurdle 8 to finish in 52.30 - 36.92 = 15.38 seconds.