1. Who says that this is one of the harder weeks from Mo?
2. Of course Mo could crash - it's possible, that he#s a way better 10000 m runner than he is a marathoner.
3. But to say 6 minute pace and especially 5:40 pace for 22 - 27 miles in Iten is piss slow... You have absolutely no clue. I have been there and did a tempo run including some world class runners... The "tempo" was about 18k (11+ miles) @ 5:40 pace IIRC... in Iten it's pretty hilly and the altutude KILLS you... Just FYI...
Pikachu
PIL wrote:
Other than the 22-27 mile long run this is pretty much my summer training schedule for my better SR HS boys in XC..
This post is not right. what kind of high school boy runs 10 mile tempo effort at 4:40 mile pace?
look at some of the results from this past weekends U.S. 10 mile championships
1. Christo Landry 46:41
2. Girma Mecheso 47:22
3. Mo Trafeh 47:27
4. Ben Bruce 47:33
5. Tim Young 47:45
6. Matt Tegenkamp 47:57
7. Joseph Gray 48:04
4:40/mile equates to a 46:40 10mile time. which would have won the race.
You have your high school seniors doubling almost every day. With some of those doubles adding up to almost 20 miles in a single day? If this is true it is almost certain that you are running the longevity of these kids running careers.
Only on letsrun would this be an easy week. 6 minute pace for recovery runs (1:20/mile slower than marathon pace), so he's not just trying to go long and slow. He could easily slow his paces down and get in 20-30 miles more per week, but last year when he was training for track races, he was probably doing ONLY (lol) 100 mpw with a lot of intensity so to jump up to 150 miles/week doesn't make much sense.
No, I mean the HS XC summer training is pretty similar, not the paces.
A longer tempo effort, and a hill session, and yes, doubles nearly every day, except for long run which is only about 13-15 miles. The tempo day would also not be quite that long, but again similar.
The kids run by time not distance, so they are on their feet about the same time Mo might be. For example I have plenty of 70min morning, 35min evening type days for the kids. That's probably pretty similar to Mo's 11-12 AM, 6 in the pm runs.
And I have found that the kids that do this training during the summer are the ones that never get injured. The kids that come into the season out of shape are more prone to get injured even from the markedly reduced training I give them during season.
Pikachu wrote:
1. Who says that this is one of the harder weeks from Mo?
2. Of course Mo could crash - it's possible, that he#s a way better 10000 m runner than he is a marathoner.
3. But to say 6 minute pace and especially 5:40 pace for 22 - 27 miles in Iten is piss slow... You have absolutely no clue. I have been there and did a tempo run including some world class runners... The "tempo" was about 18k (11+ miles) @ 5:40 pace IIRC... in Iten it's pretty hilly and the altutude KILLS you... Just FYI...
Pikachu
Come on, Hall was doing 15 mile tempos, much of it at 4:40
pace @ 7,000 feet.
11 @ 5:40 might be hard for you at 7,000 feet but 22 @ 5:40
for the big boys is piss slow.
i don't buy it!
this plan sucks hard. this is some recovery week or Mo's gonna bite the dust.
fred wrote:
Come on, Hall was doing 15 mile tempos, much of it at 4:40
pace @ 7,000 feet.
Never heard that one, from Hall or anybody else...
Sorry 4:50 pace at altitude.
fred wrote:
Pikachu wrote:1. Who says that this is one of the harder weeks from Mo?
2. Of course Mo could crash - it's possible, that he#s a way better 10000 m runner than he is a marathoner.
3. But to say 6 minute pace and especially 5:40 pace for 22 - 27 miles in Iten is piss slow... You have absolutely no clue. I have been there and did a tempo run including some world class runners... The "tempo" was about 18k (11+ miles) @ 5:40 pace IIRC... in Iten it's pretty hilly and the altutude KILLS you... Just FYI...
Pikachu
Come on, Hall was doing 15 mile tempos, much of it at 4:40
pace @ 7,000 feet.
11 @ 5:40 might be hard for you at 7,000 feet but 22 @ 5:40
for the big boys is piss slow.
I see. You never were in Iten and sorry - like I said: You don't know how hard those paces are, you have absolutely NO CLUE. I would say without hills and dirt roads the 5:40s would have been 5:20s. And without the altitude even faster. You get what I mean?
And Ryan Hall NEVER did 15 mile tempos @ 4:40 at altitude. Look at this video before the trials in 2007. He ran 15 miles @ 5:05-pace. And before London 2008 he did 12 miles @ 5:45 + 10 miles @ 4:57 + 2 miles cd.
22 @ 5:40 @ 7,000 feet is too slow to compete with the big boys.
Renato Canova:
"Renato Canova:
"I want to solve the mystery.
In Kenya, we have a place called Nangili, where all the marathon runners living near Eldoret go for their long run.
About one month before the race, we use to do, with the most part of athletes, 40 km (20 km going a little bit uphill, from 2020m till 2180m of altitude, then coming back, with the second 20 km favourable) very fast, as control of the shape, and this is the last workout of full distance at high intensity.
Before 2010, nobody there ran under 2:13:00.
At the beginning of 2011, we started running faster, and Moses Mosop ran 2:07:15.
After his result in Boston, the most part of top marathon runners started to run faster in that course.
Last year, before London, Abel Kirui ran in 2:04:57, and this became the parameter for the other best athletes.
Wilson, in the past, was used to run in about 2:10:00 (before OG 2:09:12 in muddy conditions).
Looking at an attempt of WR, I advised him to put two new things in his training :
1. Something longer than 40 km (and he ran 45 km at 90% of Marathon speed)
2. More intensity (and consequentely longer recovery in between) in some of his workouts of distance.
So, he went on the normal course in Nangili (I repeat, 40 km with 20 going up and 20 coming back) in 2:03:32, beating the "course record" of Abel Kirui.
You must think I consider about 1 minute of difference every 10 km between the same training at sea level (tarmac and racing shoes) and in Nangili (normally, heavy training shoes and road with less grip). The difference in running there or at sea level, instead, if the condition of the road is the same, in my opinion is about 3.0 per km (30.0 every 10 km). This means Wilson practically ran, 4 weeks before Berlin, 40 km in less than 2 hours, referred to the conditions of the race."
Agree!Canova would ask Mo or Salzar "how many miles of the 125 miles were spent at matarhon pace?"If this is in fact Mo's training or a close approximation, he will sh1t the bed when the others drop the hammer.The big "but" or "unless" would be if there is some "secret sauce" that would cause similar results. Given Rupp's training ... fast miles following AR races, or attempts, I would guess that the average training week that was posted might not be reality. But if we work off of the assumption that it is true then I will go with IF true, THEN Mo will sh1t the bed.
might be rcs wrote:
This training week actually looks like nothing compared with Canova's schedules (e.g. for Abel Kirui or Moses Mosop), which are of course also run at altitude.
There are basically two hard runs in there, and one of those is just a piss-slow long run with no marathon pace or even hard progression in it whatsoever
I am not counting a bunch of useless 200s as a marathon workout. All that this workout shows is that Al and Mo still have one eye on the track and haven't fully committed to the marathon. NOT a good sign.
Unless all of those 6:00 pace "recovery runs" are hiding some actual work, this schedule is a really bad sign.
Get Up On It Like This wrote:
A bunch of running around with a 2:20 marathon every Sunday. Yawn.
Plus 1 minute per mile.
fred wrote:
do you think a 200 workout, 10 mile tempo workout and jogging a 22 miler in a 125 mile week @ 7000-8000 feet is going to get it done?
I would say no, it would not.
Erm, Alberto was there with him for his final week. At least in that week he was doing what Alberto described. As I have already stated in another thread, Mo was doing workouts with Makhloufi off all people, then lying to Salazar about the speed he was doing the reps.
My opinion stands.
5:40s on hilly Iten trails = 5:20 or faster at sea level for European/US athletes. And Doing long runs at 5:20 or faster is not piss slow in my book.
Of course the Kenyans are stronger at altitude. They are more used to it.
And please don't make the mistake and think 22 miles @ 5:40 was Mo's hardest workout.
I don't say that Mo runs 2:05 or faster om Sunday because I am not sure if Mo is a marathoner.
But I do say that good tempo runs and long runs at those speeds are plenty when you want to run a fast marathon. And last but not least I think that this week didn't include Mo's hardest workouts...
We will see on Sunday :-)
Pikachu wrote:
We will see on Sunday :-)
Mo will run faster than all the experts in this thread could do as a relay.
We've been spoiled by seeing years of Canova training schedules, which are not for the weak of heart (or talent)!
This is a standard marathon training schedule... remember, this is Mo's debut, there is a lot of adjusting. He would run 90-110mi, so getting up into the 130s without the track intensity is being smart.
That being said, Alberto himself trained harder than this schedule (minus the altitude).
And don't forget Bekele's boring marathon training of 150-mile weeks that look just like Ryan Vail's.
keoll wrote:
That being said, Alberto himself trained harder than this schedule (minus the altitude).
And he was done-in at 25.
