SEMENYA jogs 800m in 1:55

I find Ross Tucker bearable, but his expertise in exercise physiology is just not relevant to the matter anymore. As has been pointed out, the CAS/IAAF/IOC will just juggle however, based upon whatever scientific "facts" they want. So in the end, it's his sociological comments that count as appearing in Twitter volume, where there is more of an agenda (on both sides).

PS. I think it is "new-speak" and "double-think", not "new-think" (but none are hyphenated)

Karma Police wrote:

So if she has testes, a Y chromosome, no female reproductive organs and testosterone levels 10-15 times that of a normal woman, how is it fair for her to compete as a woman?

But you're contributing to the issue by calling him a she, which is what he wants you to do. The more you call him a she, the more credibility he and others like him get to compete in women's athletic events.

However, he is not a she. He's a he.

Thanks for your detailed post. The premise/justification for a sex catgory itself throws up a lot of questions:

Should not sport just be either elite or not?

Why have subcategories especially ones which are now proving difficult to define? - should we do away with the sex category and assign a new one as those with a functioning SRY gene and androgen receptors and those without?

Most people, male or female are not going to be able to compete in the Olympics anyway and this may well be due genetic disdavantages which affect huge numbers of people. For example over 50% of Americans are overweight and some of this may well be due to genetic factors - should not distance running therefore have weight categories because of this? An overweight person will have huge biological disadvantage in comeptition even when comapred to an elite female -why should they not be given a fair shake at elite competition? What about older people, soon over half of the world's population will be over age 40 and aging is also a huge biological disadvantage a chunk of which is likely due to our genes.and the way they are expressed over time. Why are there no categories in the Olympics for older people?

It just looks like the sport has 2 directions to go - open competition only in major events or start introducing more subcategories at major events. The latter may be more exciting.

Old.Smokle wrote:

Prof Ross Tucker continues to tweet that hermaphroditism cannot exist in humans. He challenges you to look up the "biological definition" of the term.

Tweet: Look up the biological definition of hermaphrodite. That cannot exist on human physiology. Ignorance

Anxious to alleviate my poor ignorance, I dutifully did "look up" said biological definition.

Only 100 percent XX females who meets all the criteria of being a female can be allowed to compete in women's events. Therefore only 100 percent XX females can be designated as females for athletic purposes. Only these females can be referred to as her, she, female and woman.

Anyone who does not meet all the criteria for being a female, is not a female for athletic purposes, cannot be allowed to compete in women's events, and also cannot be designated as female for athletic purposes. They can be referred to as him, he, male, and man.

As Tucker says there is nothing in between female and male, anyone who is not 100 percent XX female and who meets all the criteria for being a female, is a male, and there are no other choices to call them in between.

exthrower wrote:

She's a ballsy runner.

If he was really that ballsy he'd be running in the men's events.

There is no question that being intersex is (or can be) a substantial performance advantage in the women's competition. This is just basically logic. If there are 3 such persons in a field of 20, and they consistently finish 1-2-3 or nearly that, it's just arithmetic.

But the CAS decision was whether a specific remedy, specifically Hyperandrogen Regulations, was necessary and proportional to achieve sporting goals in the face of this. After meeting with befuddling scientists (some complete with their agendas), they were confused enough to say it wasn't proven. I can almost agree, better IMO to just throw out all intersex athletes from women's competitions at this point, than have a succession of CAS-decided inquiries regarding whether A is a provably substantial performance advantage, then B, then C, ...

It's been said many times by now, but the main problem is that the IAAF rule 141 considers legal recognition as female to be the principal (almost only) criterion for women's eligibility. Currently, I think a biological male who obtains such a legal recognition (and does nothing other!) can compete in women's IAAF competitions. The transgender rules only apply if sex reassignment has been performed, but not if a legal "wand" has been waved instead.

Rato wrote:

It's not her fault, she is just a genetic freak of nature, just as Bolt is. I think it should be left at that. I don't care if she goes sub 1.50 to be honest. What do world records mean these days anyway, look at Paula's 2.15, or Flo Jo's 100 m record, ridiculous. What I want to see is good competition between clean athletes, that's all.

Unless of course He was assigned as a female at birth due to a tiny willy. Its not uncommon.

And apparently she has no female organs. Just the inside balls.

He's 100 percent male, and not even part female.

No, not really wrote:

exthrower wrote:

She's a ballsy runner.

If he was really that ballsy he'd be running in the men's events.

And setting WRs for the women in the meantime.

Ross Tucker is the guy who will review Robert Young's cheating on his transcontinental run. Doesn't bode well.

I guess Tucker will be "realistic" and bend over to whatever results the SKINS CEO wants.

Undescended testicles is a condition in males. I believe it can be operated on successfully.

Good to see that Semenya's marriage to her long term girlfriend Violetta, hasn't disrupted her preparations for the women's 800m at the Olympics. Photos of the ceremony can be found online. Interestingly, Semenya chooses to wear traditional male clothing for the ceremony, her bride is conversely typically female.

maybe you should go back and re-read that if you think it was in support of Semenya...

What is the story behind your handle?

Male runner Semenya's marriage to his long term girlfriend hasn't disrupted his plan to run as a man in the women's 800m in Rio. Interestingly, Semenya typically choose to wear traditional male clothing for the marriage, which is nothing unusual for a guy.

seer of whoosh wrote:

maybe you should go back and re-read that if you think it was in support of Semenya...

In exthrower's logic It isn't in support of Semenya because it used the female pronoun.

Sorry, it is in support

Karma Police wrote:

Can someone tell me if these statements are true or false.

1. Semenya has internal testes.

2. Whether it's XY or XXY, Semenya has a Y chromosome.

3. Even when on hormone treatment, Semenya had a testosterone level 3 x a normal woman, and it is now many times higher.

4. Semenya has no female reproductive organs (uterus and ovaries).

5. Semenya is legally married to a woman.

6. Semenya identifies personally as a woman and always has.

If all are true, is 6 what has swayed the CAS, effectively disregarding 1-4 (5 doesn't matter)?

All true, however if I recall correctly, Semenya has testosterone levels 3x higher than the *highest* women athlete tested. I don't know what that level was. It wouldn't surprise me if she is in the high teens to low 20s now.

I made it through about 2/3 of this thread a few days ago and haven't finished it but might in the next day or two. For now, I just want to say thank you to Ross Tucker for providing some very reasonable opinions (as did several other people, but you put so much effort into explaining your position). I was flabbergasted by how many people seemed to think you were arguing that the current situation is ideal, which you clearly weren't.

I was also flabbergasted to see how many people think sex is completely black and white. For 99.9% of people, it is, but there are cases with gray area. The ceaseless cries of "HE'S A MAN, PERIOD" are barking up the wrong tree. Your breakdown of the different aspects of sex/gender was particularly outstanding in my opinion (the difference between chromosomal, anatomical, cultural sex/gender, as well as a potentially new class of "athletic sex/gender."

Sex and gender ARE two distinct concepts. You can choose not to believe in gender and you can choose to believe that sex and gender "should" be one and the same, but the fact is they refer to different things. People take great comfort in rigid thinking - myself included - but this is a case where rigid thinking falls short of fully explaining the situation.

I have a great deal of compassion for Semenya, and I fear that the CAS just got it wrong this time. I would love for Semenya to be able to compete, but it seems clear that, due to being born intersex, she has a strong advantage that is going to hurt the integrity of the women's division. My personal approach going forward is to maintain respect and compassion for Semenya while lamenting that there are going to be some growing pains in our sport and our culture as this plays out. And that's what I plan to do - let it play out for a while and trust that people will realize that an alternative method (hormone requirements, competing with men, or a third division) must be considered.

Two final thoughts:

1. life isn't fair, unfortunately. Semenya might end up taking gold from other women who don't have her advantage, and she herself might find herself without a home in the world of elite track and field shortly thereafter. It's a bummer.

2. Pamela Jelimo came out of nowhere and was significantly faster than Semenya and, from what I remember, wasn't subject to NEARLY as much criticism. Obviously, the intersex situation is a lot more triggering than even the hot-button topic of doping, but I'm surprised that she was able to actually win Olympic gold (which Semenya hasn't done yet) and run times close to Kratochvilova and no one seemed to care that much.

And a couple more final thoughts:

1. I have no idea who Ross Tucker is outside of this thread, but I still find it amazing that so many people are criticizing him as having an agenda to allow intersex men to take over women's sport when he is actively against Semenya competing against the women. Am I missing something?

2. Lots of gay women prefer to wear suits ("men's clothes") rather than dresses ("women's clothes), including at their weddings. SHOCKINGLY, some heterosexual, non-intersex, "pure XX" women also dislike dresses. Critiquing Semenya for wearing a suit or having masculine body language is ridiculous.

3. I live in New York City and I am often playing devil's advocate against absurdly PC SJWs, but on Letsrun I feel like I am one of the most open-minded people in human history (although I give huge props to the handful of people in the thread who are thinking with reason and heart, not with rigidity and anger, although I have compassion for the latter camp, too, as this is a frustrating issue).