Japanese Marathoners - Why are they so much better than the Americans?

end of it all wrote:

Correct: America 13 Japan 9

Top 3 US runners:

Ryan Hall: not record-eligible

Khalid Khannouchi: 2:05:38

Galen Rupp: 2:06:07

Top Japanese runner ever: 2:05:50

2nd 2:06:11

Japan does not compare to the US

End of story

Wow. You basically showed that Japan and the US compare perfectly well and concluded the opposite.

Thanks for the data. So we know the top US and Japanese marathoners in history are basically equal. If we look at width (e. g. how many sub 2:10s for men), Japan wins by a landslide.

reppep wrote:

Again another thread that has potential to actually help someone learn something about running and it degrades to stupid jokes, arguments over the question being asked, and only one real post that answers anything to open discussion.

Why the f ck is letsrun like this... Jesus Christ can't we have a section for only registered posters for actual discussion?

Good point but you have to admit that the wiki link medal smackdown post was pretty good.

And to the other reference of Ryan Hall 2:04? Yes we've been down that road before. 2:04:53 with 25 mpw tailwind.

Anyway, back to the original post. It probably all comes down to the development and training systems. High school in the US is hit and miss. Some good coaches, but a lot of mediocre to very bad ones. Likewise, college has some good coaches but a lot of mediocre ones. But the biggest drawback with both high school and college in the US is short term thinking, emphasis on speed work, and often a fairly heavy racing schedule (note that colleges have gotten a lot better at this).

The Japanese seem to emphasize Ekidens and longer road racing distances (half marathon) at the college age. US is cross country (8K and 10K for men; 6K for women) and then track for the rest of the year, some doing indoor some not. But 10K specialists are not all that common at the college level, mostly they're developing 1500-5K runners (or 800/1500), with a few steeplers and 10K runners to fill those niches.

And finally, going back to the beginning of Olympic history for a medal count isn't really all that valid. How about going back to the start of IAAF World Championships (1983) and looking at WC and Olympic medals combined? Not to mention the sheer number of (not wind-aided) sub 2:10s. Which country has done better?

What could the US learn from what the Japanese are doing?

Well, it looks like the US could learn nothing from Japan according to the stats. More US medals & the fastest top runners.

Surely its a troll post by anyone who is going to post the top 1000 marathon times and use that as evidence that one group is better than the other. The marathon, more than any other race has been run very tactically up to the last 10-15 years. The best place to show ones worth is in the Olympics an the US has done better than Japan.

Most of the American races are extremely tactical with no pacers. Only chance for a PR type fast race is in Chicago but that place always has inclement weather so there's usually no actual opportunity. The Japanese have many more flat, paced races that have good weather, and they also travel to marathons that have fast, paced courses. This is really the only reason they have more mediocre runners in the top 1000 than the US. If the Japanese only ran Boston, NY, Chicago like the Americans, they would likely have maybe 2-3 guys in the top 1000.

very typical of this place wrote:

And to the other reference of Ryan Hall 2:04? Yes we've been down that road before. 2:04:53 with 25 mpw tailwind.

Lol. Yeah. 25mph tailwind. Japan had a top runner at Boston that year as well. Guess what he ran? No, not 2:02...he ran a 2:15!!!

One small problem. When Americans do run flat fast courses with pace makers. They still run 2:11-2:15+ range. For example:

Ryan Vail: PB of 2:10:57 came from the London marathon. Than in 2017 he did Berlin in 2:12:40

Fernando Cabada Jr., the top American in Berlin last year. Came in 2:15.

Than look at the Chicago marathon. If a American wants to run fast they go there. To only run not much faster than the Americans in New York.

In the US our support system is for track and cross country - the pool of runners for pros comes from high school to college to small amount of pros that have mostly trained for 800 mile 5k. In Japan there is big support in high school, college, corporations and TV for distance - 10k through marathon. Also the corporate teams provide support for many more good runners in their 20's than US model, so there are simply more guys in their prime giving it a shot. The more talent in the system will raise the bar and produce more outliers, who become the pros.

Our NCAA system is churning out loads of sub 4 milers, and sub 8 3k runners - just look at the indoor qualifying list. The Japanese system churns out 2:10 marathoners and 60 minute halfs.

One small problem wrote:

One small problem. When Americans do run flat fast courses with pace makers. They still run 2:11-2:15+ range. For example:

Ryan Vail: PB of 2:10:57 came from the London marathon. Than in 2017 he did Berlin in 2:12:40

Fernando Cabada Jr., the top American in Berlin last year. Came in 2:15.

Than look at the Chicago marathon. If a American wants to run fast they go there. To only run not much faster than the Americans in New York.

Come back to us when all of our top 20 marathoners start running fast courses with pacemakers all the time.

one problem with that.. wrote:

One small problem wrote:

One small problem. When Americans do run flat fast courses with pace makers. They still run 2:11-2:15+ range. For example:

Ryan Vail: PB of 2:10:57 came from the London marathon. Than in 2017 he did Berlin in 2:12:40

Fernando Cabada Jr., the top American in Berlin last year. Came in 2:15.

Than look at the Chicago marathon. If a American wants to run fast they go there. To only run not much faster than the Americans in New York.

Come back to us when all of our top 20 marathoners start running fast courses with pacemakers all the time.

Let me know when Americans start running under 2:10 at Chicago regularly.

I spent time in Niigata and the marathon system. What you don't understand is 1) they do not think outside of their country. They are not comparing themselves with Americans, Ethiopians, anyone. Only with other corporate teams. 2) they are "shamed" by the domestique Kenyans that the corporations are pressured to bring in to bring excitement and push the greater group. A young Japanese runner learns very quickly he/she must out-work the opponent because the pure genetic talent of an African can only be out-worked. They see this in practice every day. It makes them work. 3) Many of you don't understand what a submissive and bullying type environment most of these Japanese runners live in... many are verbally abused; some physically; many are meant to feel worthless in a way. It is tradition. They break them down to build them up. They do not question the coach like in America. It is a one-way street. You deal with injury and pain and suffering.

One small problem wrote:

one problem with that.. wrote:

Come back to us when all of our top 20 marathoners start running fast courses with pacemakers all the time.

Let me know when Americans start running under 2:10 at Chicago regularly.

Let me me know when Chicago stays as a paced course and when it doesn't have 30mph crosswinds or 75 degree temperatures.

RYANs HALL wrote:

very typical of this place wrote:

And to the other reference of Ryan Hall 2:04? Yes we've been down that road before. 2:04:53 with 25 mpw tailwind.

Lol. Yeah. 25mph tailwind. Japan had a top runner at Boston that year as well. Guess what he ran? No, not 2:02...he ran a 2:15!!!

Look at the top 5 or 10 from that day and compare their times with their PBs at other races.

one problem with that.. wrote:

One small problem wrote:

Let me know when Americans start running under 2:10 at Chicago regularly.

Let me me know when Chicago stays as a paced course and when it doesn't have 30mph crosswinds or 75 degree temperatures.

What's stopping the Kenyans from regularly going 2:06 there? Course record is 2:03:45(perfect conditions that day, what did the Americans do?). World record was broken there twice. What's the American excuses?

2018 Chicago marathon:

Japan:

Suguru Osaka 2:05:50

Taku Fujimoto 2:07:57

America:

Galen Rupp 2:06:11

Other than Rupp, no American went under 2:10.

Well this is about the 125th thread on this subject, and the answer is always the same.

Japanese simply try harder.

Look at the finishing line of this half marathon in Japan. A HUGE crowd of runners swarm from 1:00 - 1:05. You will hardly ever see this in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLAO1JJnCos

Studies have shown that body type and composition matter a lot because running economy depends a lot on these factors.

Many decades ago, Americans used to think of Japanese as short people with stubby limbs, but if you look at Japanese and other East Asian runners today, many are quite tall with long, lanky limbs. Their torsos are shorter than Caucasian torsos on average, and the average Japanese is very ectomorphic (well built for distance running).

Combine that with their all-natural diet, low air pollution, plenty of running trails, local running culture, plenty of local races, and the famous Japanese work ethic, you've basically got a perfect set of factors that make Japan the best distance running nation in Asia - and one of the very best outside Africa.

That's why the US has what 3-4 guys under 1 hour in the half marathon? How many does Japan have??

Crickets...

Talking about depth. How many Japanese have went under 63 minutes for the half vs America? And America has only 3 runners go under the hour for the half. One of them on a illegitimate course. One of them originally being from Kenya. And the other with a sucpious coach.

Depth? Depth of what? You mean to say Americans are not participating in professional half/full marathons as much as the Japanese? Then, yes you'd be right. As far as depth of quality in their elite runner per percentage, the Americans win hands down.

Lol. 63 minutes?? That's close to a top woman's time. Gimme a break. I won't consider anything of quality in the half unless it's less than 1:01:30. Japan had exactly 0 runners go under that last year.

They weight anywhere from 105 to 115 lbs. Kawauchi is a rare exception.

Japan's national record is 60:17. With 3 men under 60:30 for the half.

America national record is 59:43. With only 4 men under 60:30.

https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-time-toplists/road-running/half-marathon/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=countries&region=usa&drop=regular&fiftyPercentRule=regular&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1899-12-31&lastDay=2019-03-02

https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-time-toplists/road-running/half-marathon/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=countries&region=jpn&drop=regular&fiftyPercentRule=regular&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1899-12-31&lastDay=2019-03-02