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| Nobby |
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| Arthur NEVER ever de-emphasized hills. Be careful who you get the information from. |
| Nobby |
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You can wait for the literature to come out and tell you the "absolute" answer to your question and never ever race again. Get out and find out the answer yourself (it varies a bit from individual to individual). It took Arthur more than a decade to figure out the "formula" on himself then 30 years on other athletes around the world to make sure it works. He gave us the direction. If you don't like his answer, you can try to figure out yourself (may take more than 10 years as it did Arthur); or wait for someone to give you the answer (good luck waiting). If you get out and do 20 hard quarters, then you'll know how it feels. See if you can feel that "point" where times start to slip. Ignore that sign and keep doing them till you het "predetermined" number of 20 and see how you'd feel afterwards. Continue this type of workouts for 12 weeks and see how that affect your racing. You may ruin the season; but at least you'll find out. Who knows, it may actually work for you. Then you can turn around and criticize the Lydiard program all you want. |
| dreams, reality, etc. |
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YEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW. how do you like that answer from nobby, gone but never forgotten? nobby you just perpetuated the tits-in-twister theory. was that tone required? |
| Braavo Furgi |
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If you don't like the tone, just skip the thread. Believe me Arthur would have said almost the very same thing. Arthur was very intense and very serious about his running. This is his and JD's thread. Nobby does not have t-in-t... He is very level headed. |
| Gone but not forgotten |
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Nobby I'm just looking for answers to questions mostly RELATING to the Lydiard methods instead of being critical. I'd really like to hear from Tinman on this particular point too. Thanks a lot. This thread is the best on letsrun and I hope my questions are not detracting from that. Are they? |
| Kim Stevenson |
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5:30 in the morning here in NZ ? Could'nt sleep so thought I would check on the thread !!. Wow ! . Nobby is not taking a 'tone'. He is saying that you have to understand what various workouts are supposed to achieve and know the individual and what works and does not work for them to the best of your ability. This is the "art" of the Coaching. There are no 'absolutes' as each of us is a unique piece of Chemistry. Some peoples Chemistry just happens to operate a lot better or respond a lot better than others when it is put into various stressfull Exercise situations. He then says : If and when you know the answers then you can criticize Arthurs ideas all you like. Is'nt this a huge part of what we are saying. Arthur 'broke through' with his ideas on how to train 'sucessfully' 40 plus years ago. Since that time others have taken that "Blue Print" and done all sorts of things with it. Good and bad. But no one has come up with the formula : do this set of workouts in these times and you are set for life. That is impossible. What I find frustrating is there is a neat thread going here and some of us are trying to do the best we can with and share the knowledge we have about a man who was an amazing individual. I can tell you to do 'such and such' a workout that could possibly work for an athlete but Arthur had this amazing ability to not just get you to try the workout but also give you the feeling that running is the greatest and most natural feeling on earth. I am not sure I am explaining myself well here but I eluded to it way back on the thread when I talked about the first time I met Arthur when I oragnised him to do a Seminar for me for my Graduate PE class. The room started at 21 -22 of us and finished with about 55 plus (possibly 70)in the room. 90% of whom were not runners or the slightest bit interested in Running. In talking wih many afterwards they all said they wanted to "Go for a run". Such was the man's influence on the group. I am also aware that what I am saying sounds a heap like "Religious Fevour". Maybe it is, I don't know. All I know is he just had this ability to "inspire" and for those of us interested in the Coaching aspect. Develop insight to the best of your ability; Get to know what suits your athlete and think and plan accordingly. I am no Arthur Lydiard but if I can pass on anything I learned from him then that is neat. |
| I know |
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Dr. Exag = Skuj. Do a search if you doubt. |
| wondering |
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are you "The Real Skuj"?? |
| Gone but not forgotten |
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I didn't know for sure if Nobby was being critical but I like his answer anyway, and yeah this thread is really neat even with these comediens posting. I think I'll ask Tinman about this question by email anyway. Out. |
| Tinman |
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Seasonal anaerobic development? First, it depends upon some key factors. Foremost, it depends upon the individual. What works for Jo man not work for Sam. Jo may have a high percentage of fast twitch (type 2) fibers and therefore could handle far more "anaerobic" work than Sam. It really comes down to the percentages of fast twitch fibers you have inherited from you parents, especially your mother. The second factor is the event you are going to focus on. Is it the mile or the marathon? This makes a lot of difference. Why? Simple - event requirements! In the case of the marathon, the worst thing you can do is overdevelop your anaerobic capaicty (more specifically your anaeorbic power). If you do so when you are aiming for a marathon you won't perform well. You'll burn carbs way too fast and you will erode aerobic efficiency. You'll be relying on your anaerobic capacity to provide ATP. For example, a 3 hour marathoner aiming for 6:52 per mile would use about 2-3% anaerobic, on average, as they run along IF THEY OVERDEVELOPED ANAEROBIC CAPACITY (instead of just under 1%, which is ideal for a 3-hour runner). At about 18 miles the inefficiency of using 2-3% anaerobic will catch up with a marathoner and start to cause early fatigue. By 21 miles their pace will slow by 30 or more seconds per mile. They have burned up the carbs from their legs and liver. By the end, they fall apart, running a couple minutes a mile slower than their intended pace. Now, on the other hand,a miler will need to develop more anaerobic capacity and power than a marathoner. If anaerobic capacity is low but aerobic capacity is high, a miler will run a good mile but finish with the feeling that they "just couldn't shift gears." That is, they couldn't dig deep and get some more power from their legs. This a reality of under-developed anaerobic capacity and power. Often milers, however, have overdone their emphasis on anaerobic development (whether it was due to running too many fast reps and sessions or from neglect of aerobic capacity during the weeks when anaerobic reps were being emphasized)so they end up being unable to "hold pace" in their mile race. They "die," in other words. They can go out quickly the first 400-600m, but they slow considerably afterward. *How badly one has messed up the ratio of aerobic to anaerobic development is shown where and when an athlete "dies" in his or her 1-mile race. Ask the questions: Did they slow after 600m? Did they slow on the third lap and couldn't get anything going until the last 200m? Did they die at 1200m or just afterward? If a miler dies in the third and or fourth lap of a mile race and they have been doing "anaerobic" reps in training for a few sessions, then it is the aerobic capacity that is either under-developed or wasted away from neglect. Now, if someone WHO HAS A HIGH PERCENTAGE OF SLOW TWITCH MUSCLE FIBERS will need to know right up front that they won't be running many anaerobic reps or many sessions fast if their goal is the one-mile race, even though the event requires close to 20-25% anaerobic contribution, on average. It would be a big-time mistake for a "slow twitcher" to do plenty of anaerobic reps an sessions, period, regardless of the event. He or she would fall apart when doing many anaerobic reps! The miler type who has plenty of fast twitch fibers will be mistaken, similarly, if they do plenty of anaerobic reps as they prepare for a marathon. The event duration is so long that overdeveloping anaerobic capacity is the factor of greater consideration and takes precedence over personal muscle fiber makeup. So, there is no pat answer. It depends upon the person and the event they are participating on as to how much emphasis should be placed on anaerobic development. This is where the art of coaching comes in, whether self-coaching or from another person. Disclosure: I sometimes greatly regret giving out information like this. Why? This stuff ends up being put on some other websites from those making money off coaching. Yes, I do make a small amout of money from coaching, too, but it is my material, inspiring people to hire me! Perhaps this makes me seem like an unfriendly person for saying the obvious. But, I feel a need to say that others are fakes in how the present themselves as originators of material and methods. It bugs the hell out of me, to be perfectly frank. (I can imagine how ticked off Arthur Lydiard would be at times when others would use his training methods and claim they were the ones responsible for success of runners. Also, I can see how Mr. Lydiard would be ticked off when people would claim they are using Arthur's training method when in fact they were bastardizing it in both content and method). Never the less, I hope my explanation does some good. Hopefully it clarifies a few things for you and gives you some direction. Remember, there are guidelines which work for most of the people, most of the time, but YOU ARE UNIQUe and require adjustments related to your personal constitution and race goals. If you can't figure out those things for yourself and implement them, then get a coach to observe you and be your objective guide. Tinman |
| Nobby |
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Gone but not forgotten: I didn't mean to be critical. As a matter of fact, take it from someone who was there. I looked for an answer and waited. Get out and do it yourself and figure things out. There is NO simple one-thing-fits-all answer. I had the answer within my grasp but didn't take it. I gave this speech at the launch of the Foundation in Boulder. I'm the one who made that mistake. One of the biggest motivations of me leading this Foundation is to help all "Nobbies" out there; those who wants to understand the Lydiardism. But make no mistake; at the end of the day, you don't figure out with your head alone on paper. You figure things out with your heart and by doing it. |
| Gone but not forgotten |
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Thank you Tinman. It is kind of you to share your thoughts on this topic and I always cherish your words at letsrun. Copied and saved. Kay now I'm out. |
| Goal race. Uh oh. |
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Hmmmmm. I'll toss this out there: what if you're a middle aged 'never was' (36:36 10K pr, 5:17 mile pr and horrible at anything beyond 15K (pr 60:55)... 20 years back) who never quit running but had to drastically cut back on training due to surgery, work, injuries and family issues (long story will not bore you)? Say that I have NO SPECIFIC GOAL RACE in mind right now, but as a bare bones of a goal, desire to get my aerobic system up to whatever level I can attain at age 52, then set my sites on something in late '06 or '07? I have dropped from slightly under 6-flat pace (see above PR) to slightly below 8-flat pace (24:15 local 5K) in my last race effort, if that helps any. I'd be delighted to be able to race at 7-7:15 pace for 5 to 10K again, and am currenty doing 4 miles a day 3x weekly and owing to a back problem am using a recumbent bike for 7-10 mile (right now) workouts at around 12-14mph as an alternative. How would I go about rebuilding a base given this info? Also be advised that I am caretaker for my one remaining parent who lives with me. This more or less reduces my long run potential to 90:00 or so on early weekend AMs. With no specific date of a goal race in mind, how would you Lydiardites suggest I regain whatever aerobic potential I once had filtered through the prism of middle age? Any help is appreciated. |
| johnnydajogger |
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I relearn this lesson all the time. Last year at about this time I was doing the hill phase of marathon training after doing just the bare minimum of base work (about 3 months). I got through the hill month somehow but then I burned out when the speed phase started with the 2 time trials/week. I got injured too. So I decided to go back and do the base work until I felt strong enough for the subsequent hill and speed phases. I cancelled plans for a fall marathon and instead ran one in late winter and another in early spring after running a lot more base work. I really didnt do much in the way of hills or speed. I ran very well and was surprised at my times given my slow training miles. One really cant adhere to any schedule 100%; I think Lydiard often said that. This year, I'm a lot stronger and feel that I can follow the schedule more closely. Lydiard is a great help in giving you the general outline and the closer you follow it, the better off you'll be but you also have to adapt it to your own circumstances. |
| Nobby |
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Includes as much hill trianing as you can (even in your long runs) but avoid running down hill too hard (your back problem). Running fast involves more than just aerobic capacity. You seem to have good background of running over the years. Hills will give you strength and flexibility in your strides to run faster aerobically at your currect level. Bear in mind, with your limited committment due to the circumstances; you know you can only expect limited improvement. |
| Goal race. Uh oh. |
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Is it POSSIBLE in your opinion Nobby for me to get back to a near 7-minute race pace? I am guessing that is modest but challenging enough. |
| Kim Stevenson |
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First thing I would get you to do is lift your consisitency level to 5 times a week (if possible), then work on getting a long run going on the weekends. Say starting at 45 minutes then increasing weekly by 10 minutes or so until you can run comfortably for your 90 minutes. What Nobby says is right, include hills in your daily runs. If you can maintain a good consistent 3 months or so you should have a good Aerobic base to get to your 7 minute miles. My problem is I am telling you this from the other side of the World. For someone like you I would normally ask the following questions before giving any more 'specific' advice. Where do you live ? / City, small town, Country,/How much time per day can you devote to this activity ?/ Do you have access to hills ?./ Do you have access to 'natural surfaces' (Parks etc) or do you run on sidewalks, pavement etc. But bottom line : To me consistency of days is one of the secrets to this thing. Hope that helps a little, |
| Nobby |
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First off; almost anything is possible IF you committ yourself to it in an intelligent way and work hard at it. I don't give a damn about what anybody else might say. No one can say this is the limit. No one. But then again, you've got to realize that "there is no short-cut to the top". You need to make some assessment; is it your aerobic development that's limiting your running at 7-minute-pace? Have you done any strength type training like hill exercises? Have you done any tempo/repetition type training? Is running 7-minute pace at the end of this year your absolute goal? If getting back to near 7-minute pace is your goal and nothing else matters, it would be relatively easy; you can go on the track and try to do 400m repeats at 100~105 per lap pace. It wouldn't take that much time and you can get down your speed fairly quickly. But, if I were you, once down to 7-minute pace, I would like to see if I can get down to 6:45, then 6:30 and so on and so forth. The biggest quesiton I have is; if I told you that it's impossibly for you to get down to 7-minute pace, would have given up? To me, running is pursuit of excellence--excellence in our own term. It is a challenge to the individual limits. If you know you can't do that, would you just pack and give it up? If I'm 8-minute pace now and get it down to 7:30; that alone is a triumph and nothing to be ashamed about. You won't know the finish line and you shouldn't worry about where the finish line is. Besides, if I told you that you can't do it, then train harder and prove me wrong. No one can tell you what your limitations are. No one. |
| Tinman |
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Nobby - Good Knut Rockne pep speech! Go, Go, Go! Sometimes, you just have to go for it and see just how far you can reach into the unknown. Tinman |
| riorun |
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I am 52,start running 5 years ago, thank to threads likes this one,for the last year my mission had been to increase my milage, today I may not be the faster runner in my group but when be go for a long run after 45 minutes I star to push the pace without any hard effort and the others start to fade behind me. I will be lying if I tell you that it make feel good.As Kim said consistency will make better, how much better? I would like to think there is no limit when you feel proud of yourself. |
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