What would you recommend to change to go from 2:25-2:30 to OTQ

you are at a 67-68 vdot at 110mpw and are trying to get to 72

in theory it's remotely possible but not likely

what's your half PR ? is it sub 1:10 ? because then you have a shot

did any of those other threads with 2:30 people trying to OTQ produce anyone who has done it? follow their plan

Otq hopeful dreamer wrote:

... my past 3 marathon cycles I’ve gotten comfortable in the 90-100 mpw range, even up to 110 mpw for several weeks.... I’m 3 months out from my next race and am shooting to stay right around 95-100 mpw...

Dude, don't be kidding yourself. Deep inside you know the answer. 110 mpw just won't be enough for 2:19 for most people.

"Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results."

Run 120 mpw, see what you run in the race. If it's not fast enough, run more.

I haven't run under 2:30 but am one of those people who post in that thread.

I would warn against raising mileage beyond the 110-115 range.

My opinion is that avoiding injury while maintaining consistent 90 mpw or more, with 1.5-2.5 workouts per week, is the way to improve the marathon.

I know some guys in Portland (Bowerman club) who have gone from 2:30 marathoners down to OTQs and they basically run 100 mpw most of the year, train together whenever possible, and meet up for workouts regularly. Their jobs are supportive of their lifestyle so they can take longer lunches for workouts and runs.

The biggest thing for them, seemingly, has been consistency over several years.

They have not improved at shorter distances substantially during this time. None of them ever crush half marathons or xc meets, and they seem to be 14:30-15:00 5k guys mostly. Some ran faster than that many years ago and have the talent, but the 2:17 guy was never faster than high 14s for 5k.

buying the Nike Vaporfly 4% will get you closer to the 2:19.

What Reed describes is exactly what I have done and, over the years, my marathon times continue to drop. I am now 31 and still PRing at the end of every cycle. Granted, I am not to the OTQ, but I hope to be soon. I have progressed from 3:21 down to 2:25 over the course of 8 years.

As someone who has gone from a 2:29 debut down to 2:17, the biggest key is consistency in training and mileage. I agree with what other people have said so far for the most part. For me it took a few years of building up to consistently running about 110-120+mpw, not just for a few weeks during a marathon buildup, but essentially any week I wasn't tapering or recovering from a race. This is what worked for me. You will have to find out what exactly works for you, but it will most likely involve more mpw and longer average daily runs.

My advice is don't listen to anyone on here who says don't run over x mpw. Find what your body can handle by slowly adding mileage. Also, if OTQ is your goal, focus on that and don't worry about running faster 5k/10k/half times. Those times will come down naturally as you get better. My marathon PR makes no sense when compared to my other PRs, but I don't care about running faster at shorter distances as the times I am capable of running at those distances mean nothing. I have friends who are much more talented than me whose marathon PRs are well slower than mine because they run 5k/10ks as "peak" races and try to run 14:30/30:00 whereas I may run the same races as workouts and run 15:15/31:00 even though I could run faster times if I wanted to focus on those distances.

Disclaimer:

It takes a ton of time and work to go from 2:25-2:30 down to OTQ for very little payoff. As it has been said numerous times on this forum, OTQ is really just an arbitrary goal time and other than family/friends/coworkers thinking you are running in the Olympics and free entry/travel to some races, it won't really do much for you. Is it worth it? Hard to say.

Thanks for all the feedback. It's interesting to see the different perspectives. I've also been of the mindset in the past that more mileage is better, however lately I've been wondering whether I've spent too much time running easy slow mileage. My marathon progression has been 2:35 then 2:28, and I've ran low 1:09's in the half a couple of times. My first marathon followed more of a Daniels style training where as my second was more Canova inspired. I attempted Hansons for a cycle but ended up getting injured.

It's also been interesting reading some different people's training going into CIM. Looking at the BTC guys, they were running decent mileage but not huge mileage. It seemed like they hovered around 100 mpw but had some big workouts like a 25 mile long run, and 20 miles at MP + 15 seconds. In contrast reading Brogran Austin's training, it seemed like he was still in the 90-100 mpw range but without typically marathon workouts. So it's been hard trying to identify where to go in my training through this cycle without just repeating what I've done in the past.

Have you considered hiring a coach? If you liked the Canova style training you were doing before, Nate Jenkins is now coaching and he is quite knowledgeable about the system. If you haven't already, definitely check out his blog. Tons of amazing info there.

Good luck, man. I'm in my own hunt for a PR, way, way behind you, but I love following these threads. It's a lot of the same stuff and also quite inspiring. Even if many say the OTQ is somewhat meaningless.

Get up to 120 for a little bit during the buildup about 4/5 weeks out, with a lot of weeks of 100-110.

You've also got to get to the point where you can do workouts with 2 mile or 3 mile or even 4 mile segments near 5 flat pace.

If your workouts are short and fast (800's at 5k pace) or long tempos not that fast (5:305:30 pace) then you've got to meet that in the middle a bit.

Also do some strength training. Most people don't do any, and if you start getting consistent you'll be able to get more comfortable at a faster pace because your body will be stronger and hold the form better and have a higher top speed in general. Tons of people can crank out high mileage but they are very weak.

Cut back on your mileage! If you have the talent ( read speed) there is no problem for you to reach sub 2:20 on as low mileage as 50-60 mpw. Of course I know the art to do it .

-Real Magic-

I think part of the talent associated with a sub 2:20 WITHOUT a seriously fast 5k is being able to crank out week after week of 120+ without breaking down.

If you’ve been routinely at 110-115 with good focused workouts you can’t just keep doing the same thing and expecting a different (faster) result. Running is easy. You either go faster or longer.

Alan