How do we define the term “maximum steady state?”

It's the turnpoint before lactate starts rising above resting levels. Aerobic threshold is another name for it and it is generally about the pace one could hold for 2 hours in a race.

Exactly.

In trained athletes: Steady state effort is roughly marathon effort. Tempo effort is roughly half marathon effort.

It's really easy to screw this up and border on tempo effort when trying to do a steady state. It's better to think of it as a brisk aerobic run than to try and force a pace that you may not be feeling.

Arthur lydiard fan wrote:

Need a very good working definition

Ty

You won't get one, because their is no consensus.

There not their.

Shoebacca wrote:

Exactly.

In trained athletes: Steady state effort is roughly marathon effort. Tempo effort is roughly half marathon effort.

It's really easy to screw this up and border on tempo effort when trying to do a steady state. It's better to think of it as a brisk aerobic run than to try and force a pace that you may not be feeling.

Agree. I think for me this is usually "around" marathon pace. But it also depends on the day. Sometimes that steady state feeling is slower than MP. A lot depends on the body, the weather, the week, whatever. For this reason I never do a steady state type run with any pace feedback during the run. I review it when I get back.

good luck with that wrote:

Arthur lydiard fan wrote:

Need a very good working definition

Ty

You won't get one, because their is no consensus.

There has been consensus for almost 100 years by a nobel prize winning physiologist. Maximum steady state is the point where the muscles have all the oxygen they need to perform but where any increase in effort would cause lactate to accumulate above resting levels. You will not find anyone that will argue against this.

Lydiard was all about feel, steady state feels hard but not all out.

Is it on the edge of where a trained runner goes into oxygen debt and has to slow down??

It has been 20 years since I trained using Lydiard but as I recall, he had books with tables in them which calculated what these approximate paces would be, based on your occasional time trials.

Elixer wrote:

good luck with that wrote:

You won't get one, because their is no consensus.

There has been consensus for almost 100 years by a nobel prize winning physiologist. Maximum steady state is the point where the muscles have all the oxygen they need to perform but where any increase in effort would cause lactate to accumulate above resting levels. You will not find anyone that will argue against this.

That doesn't make sense. Resting lactate levels for distance runners 1 mmol, marathon pace around 2 mmols, half marathon pace around 4 mmols, 10k pace?

Steady state is an arbitrary designation. All paces lead to fatigue.

If you want to put labels on metabolic thresholds, then ventilatory threshold and respiratory exchange ratio would be more reliable. But in the real world of training and racing, pace judgement is a combination of feel and experience.

All these Lydiard posts got me reading more of his stuff again. It's been a while.

It seems the steady state pace would change a bit based on the distance run. I found a number of people saying best case steady state would be around 10 to 15 seconds slower than MP. In these contexts they were referring to runs in the 60 to 90 minute range that you cold regularly repeat without slowing down or breaking down.

But compared to the long run, it is a bit slower than that. If you look at what Lydiard's boys were doing on their infamous 22 mile long runs, the faster loops had them running in the 5:30s to 5:50s per mile as they neared peak base fitness. For those guys that was about MP+30-50 seconds. Interestingly this is right in range with what some of the modern coaches are having their runners do in faster long runs. Often written as 20 miles at 90% of MP or 95%MP.

So you can certainly attach some numbers. But I think the "feel" part comes in because it can change based on the day, the distance, the point in the season, etc.

good luck with that wrote:

Elixer wrote:

There has been consensus for almost 100 years by a nobel prize winning physiologist. Maximum steady state is the point where the muscles have all the oxygen they need to perform but where any increase in effort would cause lactate to accumulate above resting levels. You will not find anyone that will argue against this.

That doesn't make sense. Resting lactate levels for distance runners 1 mmol, marathon pace around 2 mmols, half marathon pace around 4 mmols, 10k pace?

Steady state is an arbitrary designation. All paces lead to fatigue.

If you want to put labels on metabolic thresholds, then ventilatory threshold and respiratory exchange ratio would be more reliable. But in the real world of training and racing, pace judgement is a combination of feel and experience.

Resting levels vary from person to person as well as lactate response at certain paces because time and intensity are more important factors, have a look at some abnormal lactate charts of an athlete who has increased their anearobic power too much relative to aerobic capacity, they can often be producing high levels of lactate at relatively slow paces. you are designating lactate levels to race paces which is not how it works. They rely on intensity and not race pace so you are contradicting yourself there between your first paragraph and last. Maximum steady state is the highest intensity that one can maintain without creating extra fuel in the absence of oxygen. It is an intensity and not a pace but you can in a controlled enviroment with proper protocol, get a fairly accurate measurement of the velocity at maxium steady state.

Does that mean it's the pace you should run every day? No as the pace will fluctuate depending on the uncontrolled varibles. OP was looking for a working definition and sometimes you have to break these silly lydiard "rules" to further someones knowledge of the system when they don't have experience of that feeling.

If a coach can't give an athlete an explanation of how a workout should be done or felt, neither of them are going to be any the wiser starting off. So first you need a bit of knowledge of what the intensity is, then you can gain the experience through expermintation otherwise you are throwing darts with a blindfold on.

I do not agree with Elixer that maximum steady state is the same as aerobic threshold. You are confusing anaerobic threshold with the aerobic threshold. At the AnT, lactate levels begin to reach 4mmol at which point you’ve surpassed your maximum steady state. Well trained runners can run “steady” right up to 85% of their MHR which is much closer to AnT than to the aerobic threshold.

So called 'aerobic threshold' marathon pace 2 mmols lactate whatever is about 85% ish of MHR

So called 'anaerobic threshold' half marathon pace 4 mmols lactate (yes it varies) is around 92-3% MHR

It's also around ventilatory threshold, RER 1:1 where breathing is controlled, but it's not really anaerobic threshold because when you go faster, the anearobic contribution rises in a more linear fashion rather than exponential.

Anaerobic contribution to energy output is NOT inneficient as the old text books will tell you. But exponential out of breathness most certainly is. Again it comes down to pace judgement and experience.

What?? wrote:

I do not agree with Elixer that maximum steady state is the same as aerobic threshold. You are confusing anaerobic threshold with the aerobic threshold. At the AnT, lactate levels begin to reach 4mmol at which point you’ve surpassed your maximum steady state. Well trained runners can run “steady” right up to 85% of their MHR which is much closer to AnT than to the aerobic threshold.

I'm not confusing anything. Aerobic threshold is where blood lactate levels start increasing above resting levels(OBLA)(usually but not all the time, this is around 2mmol). Anearobic threshold is around 4mmol as you said(lactate inflection point). Disagree with me if you want. Well trained runner can run up to 85% of where lactate inflection point occurs or lactate threshold.

So, 4mmol lactate threshold is way above maxium steady state as you state and well trained athletes can run around 85% mhr and be steady state you say? 85% of mhr is actually where lactate threshold and inflection takes place in trained athletes so you've contradicted yourself there.

FMP*

Just scratch my previous posts, this form needs an edit feature. Here is the corrected post.

I'm not confusing anything. Aerobic threshold is where blood lactate levels start increasing above resting levels(OBLA)(usually but not all the time, this is around 2mmol). Anearobic threshold is around 4mmol as you said(lactate inflection point). Disagree with me if you want but you are not right.

So, 4mmol lactate threshold is way above maxium steady state as you state and well trained athletes can run around 85% mhr and be steady state you say? 85% of mhr is actually where lactate threshold and inflection takes place in trained athletes so you've contradicted yourself there.

This is probably the best answer in terms of Lydiard philosophy and not looking at the point of maximum steady state.

Lydiard modulated efforts and distances as he thought that gave the best results. None of his athletes contrary to a newly emerging belief ran every run at maxium steady state. The runs were all high-end aerobic and faster than easy but they weren't going out hammering every run at Marathon effort either.

Just scratch my previous posts, this form needs an edit feature. Here is the corrected post. I copy and pasted my first reply by accident again.

I'm not confusing anything. Aerobic threshold is where blood lactate levels start increasing above resting levels(OBLA)(usually but not all the time, this is around 2mmol). Anearobic threshold is around 4mmol as you said(lactate inflection point). Disagree with me if you want but you are not right.

So, 4mmol lactate threshold is way above maxium steady state as you state and well trained athletes can run around 85% mhr and be steady state you say? 85% of mhr is actually where aerobic threshold and OBLA takes place in trained athletes so you've contradicted yourself there.

I got it right this time?