Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 11-4-18

Coach - Are you still on the low carb high fat diet? Do you think it is possibly a factor? I do know more triglycerides in the blood the higher the HR will go. Conditions were brutal which plays a part .. but that HR is very high.

Meant to add... a PR is a PR if it feels like it or not. (but I def know how it feels)

Male, 25, 6’4”, 144 lbs

PRs: 4:54 (mile 2018), 16:56 (2018), 1:18:00 (2018), 28:01 (8k 2015)

Goal: Debut Marathon November 11 @ 2:45 (6:17s), B Goal: reclaim title at trail 100k 12/2/18

Mn - PM: 7.5 @ 8:00s

Tu-Th: Gastritis

Fr - PM: 5.5 @ 8:30s

Sa - PM: 8 @ 7:15s

Su - AM: 13.5 @ 7:30s

Total: 35

Threw up Monday night (and laid awake most the night in pain) from what I believe is Gastritis caused by the coffee I had monday at noon. Havent had this issue since May but have had it on and off over the last 4 years. It has been caused mostly by coffee but occasionally tomato sauce/spicy foods. I changed my diet about a year ago and have had much less issues, over the last few months ive been slowly introducing more coffee into my diet but apparently it was a bad idea and this is the result.

Stomach felt good enough by friday to run again but fri-sat-sun I felt so bad running, like I just came back after two weeks off. I just hope I feel normal by midweek. I've also had random aches that did not exist before taking off, knee back foot all hurting. im guessing the foot is from my cumulus shoes, and the back is from poor posture at work. doubt anything will come of them but its annoying.

I know the fitness couldn't have disappeared but this is not what I wanted to deal with before my goal race.

Checked out NYC results but was running/travelling during. Looks like US girls did ok and US guys did less than ok

Bruin - Big congrats on your NYC result! 2,42 is great for that race. I knew you would have no problem breaking 2:45.

Had a bad dream about the race last night. I dreamed that I forgot to drive to Richmond and woke up on Saturday morning realizing that and freaking out...at my gramdma’s old house in Brooklyn.

Coach Jeff - First off Congrats on the PR. I'd have to handicap your race result due to the weather conditions. 73+73 sucks when going for a HM PR. Looking at your HR data I can see that you put in the effort and I'm sure you were feeling it with the mostly uphill second half. I think you should be able to make that sub 1:30 in better weather. As for my 20 miler, it was slower than my two 20 milers this past spring at roughly the same heart rate. I went into this one with more cumulative fatigue. It is a disappointment to see in terms of pace for a given HR, but I am trying to remain optimistic that everything will come together with the tapering/peaking. That is provided the knee holds out. It is hard to make out what is going on with the knee. I can start a run with some discomfort and by mile 3 or 4 the pain is gone. My short run on Sunday was a little rough so I am a bit concerned. I will get a better read on the situation with this evening's run.

More comments to come this evening hopefully. I just had to get something in for CJ.

Yeah, the diet is fair game, but I don’t think it’s the primary factor here. Remember, I ran faster at a lower HR just a few weeks ago for a 10k PR. Last Friday I did a HM pace run: 10k at 176 avg. I’ve run faster at my low low maffetone rate than ever before.

The conditions were hotter and more humid than I’ve seen for about a month. It might be that simple. Just bad luck. Maybe.

I don’t feel bad about the race. I feel like I gave what I had. And in the bigger picture, it’s just a medium long run, VO2max version. And I got cash money! I’ve suffered more for less!

runrincerepeat wrote:

Coach - Are you still on the low carb high fat diet? Do you think it is possibly a factor? I do know more triglycerides in the blood the higher the HR will go. Conditions were brutal which plays a part .. but that HR is very high.

Triglycerides are probably not a factor here. Given CJ's high level of activity and relatively low body weight put him at lower risk of having high triglycerides. While saturated fats can contribute to high triglycerides so can sugars and certain carbs. I'd say cardiac drift from the heat and humidity and some level of dehydration.

Coach - invest the money wisely (in cases of beer) and drink one or twelve and celebrate that PR!

SI: Thanks for the support. I'm OK with it.

But the same goes for you and your 20 miler... slower pace due to fatigue makes sense... and maybe makes for a better workout in some respects.

As for the knee: injuries that fade after you get going... those are tough... I deal with that on my left heel/achilles insertion sometimes. I've been converted to the ranks of diligent foam-rollers and it might be coincidental and anecdotal, but I credit that with the reduction of issues in that lower leg area. Maybe some quad rolling? Loosen stuff up a bit? Just a thought.

runrincerepeat wrote:

Coach - invest the money wisely (in cases of beer) and drink one or twelve and celebrate that PR!

Indeed! I may emulate Smoove's week...

And VEGAN, too, so I hope you won't mind me falling off the wagon for a few sips...

Bruin1996 - Huge congratulations to you! Can't wait to hear how it all played out. Ten-minute PR! 2:42! Wow, wow, wow!!!

RRR - A 75-mile "down" week! Any progress with the thread "goal race" listing? How many racing this weekend ... OR at Richmond, I know ... RunnerSam's marathon, too ... and two heading to Philly the next week? Also, two running CIM on Dec 2?

Stone - At 5'11", what is your normal race weight? At same height, I was also 170 when racing in my 40s, and still over 160 now. But compared to guys like OR and Bruin, it's like we're running while lugging a 40-pound bag of sand.

Theodore - We have the same half marathon goal for the spring. Let's have a good winter of training. And keep our knees healthy.

Pappy - Good news that your knees are on the mend. Looking forward to seeing some serious training from you this coming year!

TDL - You've got me considering going "watch-free" for the winter: no times/paces to log or fret about. Just run the miles, do the crunches and planks, lift the weights. Hmmm.

Gordon - We ran nearly identical 5K's on Saturday. It's a distance with which I've had a love-hate relationship. It still burns me that I failed at sub-17 in my 40s. You'll get it, though!

RunGuy - Yup, let's work on strength and resilience this winter.

pewow - Have a great race this weekend.

gfmah - Do you keep track of distances at all, or solely time?

AJ - Two great workouts, even if you didn't hit the goal paces on Sunday.

OR - Enjoy this week, and have a great race this weekend. The thread marathon mojo is on fire this fall.

Sub 6 - When you hurt your knee and lamented that you would lose a big chunk of training time, I admit to thinking, geez how fragile is this guy? Now, two weeks since banging my knee, I'm sitting here with it STILL throbbing with pain. Karma!

Working Harder - Hope you're feeling better today.

team1 - Awesome race and fantastic write-up. What a great read! Nice photo too, well worth missing the sub-2:40!

HHH - Nice week. Ahhh ... to be able to run an "easy" 16:44 on a long course. That hilly long run was a fine effort, too. And, wow, fantastic NYC marathon results for your clubmates!

cocoon - Congrats on the mileage PR. Those workouts look like 3:00 marathon training to me.

jewbacca - Too bad about the 10K, but wise to not take the risk.

stat - I've been fighting a lot of wind on training runs lately; I hate it, but the 18mph wind in my Saturday race was a lot less daunting as a result.

PutoMiudo - Congratulations to your father. Fantastic result in his first marathon!

Coyote - Interesting approach to the 6K cross-country race. Any soreness after running in the spikes? Next up is the 8K road, then club XC nationals?

slo - Your "stepping stones" workout looks like what AJ also ran this past week. Gonna add that one to my list of ideas for 2019 ...

Still Improving - Hope the hamstring is nothing.

LancRunner - Four minutes recovery is about what I used to do for a 4 x 1600 workout. I was chasing sub-17 as a master, and ran a lot of 3x and 4x mile repeats at 5:20-5:25, and 800 repeats at 2:35-2:40. But never bettered 17:10. Maybe I should have run a tad slower with less recovery? Actually, looking back, I am thinking I should have run more threshold-type runs and 200m repeats, and not so many 800's, 1000's, 1200's and 1600's (plus a lot of 5K races -- all similar stimuli).

James - You ran five miles more than I did last week!

Working Harder - Hope you're feeling better. Meanwhile I will try to wrap my brain around your concept of 80mpw as being "moderate mileage."

Coach Jeff - Despite the missed time goal, congratulations on a good race and fine placing. In the money! Will you have any opportunity to race in low-humidity, 50-degree weather before Boston? (Yes, those are the conditions I am predicting for Patriots Day 2019!)

RunnerSam - Those few days off may well help more than hinder. Have a great race this weekend!

RRR - nice week, and looks like a good plan for the future with the 90s. the fartlek looks tough

The Stone Cutter - ouch that does not sound like a good way to start off the cycle, maybe some back strengthing work would help (supermans)

Theodore - hopefully it was just the shoes, as you advance in your running career you will learn when to switch out shoes just by how your legs feel different. I've certainly had a similar experience in the past

tall dark roast - I've never focused on minutes before but am glad its working for you

Gordon Tremeshko - I believe rather than one goal race you should have a 5k season where you race 5ks 4-6times over a 2 month stretch. should help with the motivation and try to get a few done on the track

AngryJohnny - great week, the alternation workout looks fun ill have to keep it in mind

Sub 6:00 - that's a lot of trick or treaters, I got 4

Working Harder - glad (not really) I'm not the only one who threw up this week. probably a much less enjoyable experience during the race, sorry mate

team1 - great race report, hope you are OK after that

HHH - looks like you are setting yourself up well for racing XC

cocoon - great week and congrats on the mileage PR, the LR workout and easy run paces all suggest sub 3:10 should be a given

stat - has O's estimate for philly changed at all? his LRs have been good but im not convinced his volume is there. Looks like you got in about 75 miles for the week with two decent quality sessions, both longer workouts for you! I was thinking the other day, I'm guessing you neither have a coach or follow a main training theory/style (Daniels, Pfitz, etc) so how do you go about week by week planning?

PutoMiudo - Awesome racing with your father, give him a 'great jog' from us. 3:28 at 53 is solid

slo-twitch - two long and tough workouts. taper time I hope

LancRunner - those 1600s were really quick on tuesday, I'd agree that the recovery was long but with that I fear I may be watching your back come post Turkey 5k

Bruin 1996 - great job, seems like a lot of quality during race week but I guess it worked

JamesTheAmateur - happens, can't lose/gain too much confidence off of one bad day(TT). I knew/know a lot of grad students who were questioning being there. It is likely best to stick through

Coach Jeff - sorry about the race, impressive how linear the decline in pace was. We have all been there, doesnt make it easier but.. onwards

Best of luck with those starting their taper, and the others tapering/racing this week.

-RunnerSam

Allen1959 - That's an interesting anecdote... I've been doing a lot of 1200/1600 type work on the track most Tuesdays, then on Thur/Fri doing threshold type stuff. I haven't don't 200's in years, but maybe that would be something fun to throw in there to keep the speed going. I wouldn't even know what to shoot for on a 200... maybe 37-38... I could also look at doing 400's at 77 or so.

Maybe I'll look at a workout like... 4x1000 @3:30ish; 4x400 @77ish; 4x200 @37... that could be something fun to try tomorrow.

OR wins as he was the only one to guess but my 5k time yesterday was 18:11. Course is flat for a mile, second mile has one big steep hill and one smaller gradual hill, last mile is flat. Weather was mid 40s, raining and 20mph winds. My friend who ran 16:04 and 16:10 the last two weeks decided not to race because the weather wasn't nice.

Trying to be smart I wear an old sweatshirt to the line, ditch the sweatshirt right before the start and decide I feel kind of warm so I ditch my gloves too. Off the line some kid and a guy with headphones holding his phone in one hand both sprint into the lead. To be honest, I was annoyed with them. Once out of the mass of people at the start line the wind hits me and damn, it's cold. Running in deep mud too, feet sinking in and sucking with every step. I get to the lead maybe 400m in trying to balance not knowing how much the mud will sap my legs with not getting out hard enough last week. After ~1k we're out of the low lying field and the deep mud is replaced with regular mud where just the top surface is slippy. A group of three leaders comes through into mile 1 at 5:30. We all run the big hill pretty conservatively (even in spikes I was slipping) I try and bomb down the other side and spend most of mile 2 shuffling around the three of us. I felt like I was running a pretty even effort but its hard to tell with constantly changing footing/wind and I also felt like my legs were locking up from the cold. Coming through mile 2 (11:22) the eventual winner drops the hammer and I'm in 3rd by a good margin. I pull second place to within 2-3 seconds but he distances me again over the last 800. Cross the finish line in 18:11 defeated and shivering. 10 sec down on 2nd and 25 sec down on 1st. 4th place was another 20 sec behind me.

Splits ~ 5:30, 5:50, 6:10

Came into this race thinking I could win as I was second last year by a couple seconds and I'm in much better shape this year. Unfortunately 1st place (who won last year) is also in much better shape having improved his marathon PR 8 min in the last 12 months. I probably could have dressed warmer for the race, but the facts are I got hosed the last mile. The point of racing is to try and beat people and coming into the last mile in a pack of 3 and ending up 3rd isn't good.

I was originally going to keep training through Thanksgiving but I'm now going to be in New Orleans that week (poor me). Travel schedule is going to prevent me from racing any of the races I was thinking of doing that week (Turkey Trot, Living History Farm XC in Iowa, Footlocker MidWest open race) so I'm calling it quits here. Talked with slo a bit about my plans moving forward this week and I'll write it up for the rest of you on Thursday or Friday (plus comments).

Male, 32, 6'2, 175, father of 2 young ones

PRs: 5k 16:22, 10k 34:27

Goals:

a) Stay healthy and have fun

b) XC regionals Nov. 18 (1 week earlier than I thought)

M - off

T - 12k, Smoove special: 4x200, 4x400, 4x200*

W - 10k

Th - 10.5k, 20' tempo**

F - 10.5k w/ 6x20"

S - off (unplanned)

S - 20.5k long run

T - 63.5k

* That hurt more than I thought. Very windy day. 35/36 for the 200s and 77/78 for the 400s.

** I think it was the first time in my life that I did a straight 20' tempo run. Started somewhat conservative and picked it up the last 4'. Definitely was working at the end. Avg. pace: 3:44/k - ok.

Kind of bummed that I missed Saturday but I missed the alarm and never found a time window for the rest of the day.

XC regionals are one week earlier than I thought, will bring out the spikes this week for some k and 400 repeats on grass.

Some comments from the top of my head:

Coach Jeff - congrats on the PR. I am 100% convinced that you are in sub90 shape. You need better weather.

Bruin - congrats on the PR. Agree with others - you should be faster

Allen - bummer with the knee. Hope it gets better this week.

OR - good luck for Richmond. You are fit.

RRR - strong workout on Wednesday.

SC - back pain is the worst. I had to walk/jog 8k home earlier this year because of it.

WH - bummer with the 10k. Question re Nate: I am a reader of his blog, do you know why he is not updating anymore (since late August?)

Smoove - strong week. Keep it up and AJ or BDubs might really have a shot

team1 - congrats. Sounds like a brutal race for sure.

Well this morning finds me feeling worse than yesterday. Definitely a case of the flu for me. At least I know the very in stellar performance was out of my control. Working from home today so I’ll try and get some comments up.

Hantph - re Jenkins blog. I don’t know specifically and i have thought about asking him. Just in general conversation I get the feeling it’s simply a matter of available time especially now that he is coaching athletes on top of his teaching gig. Next time we talk I’ll inquire though.

Allen - The Goal Race Board needs work.. I will get on it after I do some catching up around the office. I am reading thru a Construction Contract for a Remodel. How Smoove does that sh*t for a living I dunno .. I would be a raging alcoholic drinking at breakfast/desk/lunch.

RunnerSam / Hant - The workout on wed was very tough.. a strength oriented runner like me changing gears like that was hard. Much more looking forward to my 6mile Easy Progression into 10mile "Hard without racing" tomorrow mornin. I like the steady stuff over anything else.

Good looking weeks abound.

I think the blog update thing is a matter of available time also because Jenkins and his wife are either expecting or have just had a child.