Road Racing and Training Thread (Chicago Edition) - Week Ending 10/7/18

Oh don't get me excited with talk of a deep field! I might need some help, actually. The website says the elite field is closed and not to bother, but I emailed the coordinator anyway last night. We've been in touch before but it's been months since we talked.

If I can't get in, is there a disadvantage to starting behind the elites? Do they start before everyone else or does the rest of the field just line up behind?

Okey dokey. Long post about my weekend ahead....

First, it was really cool to see a bunch of dudes I don't know spending their Sunday morning following along with those of us in Chicago. So thanks for that. This is a great group.

As I've said before, my primary goals from the start of the cycle were sub 3 hours and feel like I had finally executed a marathon properly (previous bests were 3:09, and a 5 minute positive split, but not in the same race). I privately had a "perfect day" goal of 2:55 and more conservative goal of 2:57, which would be my starting pace.

Race report:

6:00 AM Sunday morning - Meet up with AJ outside my hotel and he walks me through the cattle herding logistics to get to our bag check and corral. Chicago probably has it very well organized but I didn't even have to think about it thanks to him, so I highly suggest meeting up with AJ before the race if you ever run Chicago.

7:30 - Gun goes off. Immediately into "relaxed easy run marathon pace" and get passed by everyone. My watch says I'm running 4:53 pace under a bridge. GPS will definitely be useless today. Hit first mile marker at 6:47.

Also hit mile markers 2 & 3 at 6:47, then a 6:42 and 6:49. All well and good.

However, at this point I got rolled up by the ahead-of-schedule 3:00 pace group. Probably made larger by the recent change to the BQ standards I'm guessing. I met a guy who trained using a Hansons plan and used to live in my state, so we talked a bit. Unfortunately the 3:00 pace group is a thundering mass of annoyance, and the more we talked I learned is goal was a minute or two slower than mine, and that he was having trouble finishing the MP runs some days at 6:48s so he didn't even seem super confident in his A goal. Then mile 6 was a 6:52 mile, which he said was "perfect for him". The 3:00 group was finally on pace and I was in the thick of it feeling relaxed. Too relaxed. I apologized and said "sorry...I gotta get out of this crowd" and ticked it down a bit now that I was warmed up. (Sorry David). Didn't see another mile as slow as mile 6 until mile 25.

Somewhere around mile 8 my forefeet already started to feel a little tired, so minus 1 point to the adidas Bostons I guess. Was a weird thing because I did longer training runs in them than that, but they still handled everything pretty well. All things considered. Ran miles 7-13 at 6:38-6:43ish. Missed some mile markers on the manual lapping, so have some 2 mile splits instead of 1 mile, but I'm already providing too much detail and you've moved on anyway.

Saw Mrs.T and GTJr. at our pre-agreed upon spot just past halfway and swerved outside to give Jr a little belly tickle. Had hit halfway perfectly despite one or two slower miles and was still feeling great. Everyone was happy. (Last time the Mrs. had seen me in a marathon was 2 marathons ago around mile 20 of a terribly ill advised and severly undertrained death march...she enjoyed seeing this one much more).

Miles 14-20 continued without drama. At some point I was trying to do calculations for if I could close the last 10k at 6:30 pace what my time might be (ha). I was feeling that good. The pace seemed like I could hold it forever, but since my top 2 goals were still within reach without me speeding up I tried to hold where I was. It was also a totally foreign feeling to have this sort of confidence in the second half of a marathon. This chunk of miles were between 6:35(mile 19)-6:48(mile 20). It looks like I thought it was time to drop a small hammer at mile 19 and then I realized that wasn't going to work out by mile 20. ha.

By the time I actually got past 20 miles I was much less ready to try to run 6:30 pace, instead all I could do was convince myself if I kept running 6:45 I thought I might be able to come in just south of 2:57. My last 6:4x mile was mile 23. I sure felt like I was running AT LEAST 6:20-6:30 pace for the last 5k, but every watch check was a little slower the rest of the way, running 6:51, then 6:53...and with one mile left still thinking if my brain was working properly that a sub 7 minute paced last 1.2miles might get me in under 2:57. (Math was very tricky at that point and the 0.2 hiccup didn't help). Looks like I paced 7:04 on that final stretch and lost all 15s of my positive split right there. So, I'm with Andy on team "just missing another minute barrier". Oh well. I did everything I could and couldn't have asked for any more than what I got out of myself on Sunday. All missions accomplished. Mile 27 probably would have started to get really ugly. I think a couple of the others also mentioned the wind at the end and 'Mt. Roosevelt'...I'm sure neither were as bad as they felt at the time, but I did have a choice word or two for that breeze.

Questions I remember seeing earlier when I went through the thread but I'm not going to reread the whole thing so sorry if I miss one:

"How was the weather?"

Agree with Smoove that it's the best I've had for a marathon, but I've had bad luck. I'm a bigger dude from a northern state so I run hot and was already dunking water on my head at the first aid station and continued that the whole race. The rain wasn't hard enough to be a hinderance and I was dumping enough water on myself that I didn't actually notice when it was or wasn't raining really at any given time. Also thanks to whoever mentioned the carpet on the bridges. (I think AJ in the weather thread?) Those metal grates were a mess without it, but I knew right away what to look for.

"How did you celebrate?"

Went to my in-laws who live in a third story apartment (ow) and doubled my beer intake for the month (with three I think). Went to bed early and woke up early because I forgot to turn off my 4:30 alarm from the day before.

"What's next?"

A week off to heal. I naturally woke up at 5 this morning because that's what I'm used to but didn't want to run, so maybe I'll use that time to finally read Run Faster by Brad Hudson then try to some less rote structured training againthis fall for some shorter distance PRs, hopefully I can cash in on the aerobic strength I've built up this summer. Still haven't run a sub18 5k. Haven't run anything faster than half marathon pace in over 2 months because Hansons (not counting one mile at the end of a long run for 'fun'). Probably take next year off from marathons and wait till Boston 2020 for another one of those, but I also said I wasn't going to sign up for a marathon last year until I felt like I already could demonstrate I was in sub 3 shape, and instead I signed up for Chicago 20 lbs overweight and on a 2 month running break altogether, so we'll see if I can stay away.

"Can I run twice as far and 3s/mi faster in two weeks than I did this weekend? -RGM"

Smoove did that and more this weekend. Didn't he run 1:17:xx two weeks ago? Your mileage has been higher than mine for a long time which can't be discounted, especially right before that race. Like someone else said - you're next.

Also since I've already written a novel, I have other statistics that I find interesting.

Marathon progression:

May 2010: 3:25

May 2016: 3:54

June 2017: 3:09

October 2018: 2:57

6.75 min/mi progression:

Best 5k of 2016: 6:44 pace

Best half marathon of 2017: 6:44 pace

Best marathon of 2018: 6:45 pace

Thanks again everybody.

There is no disadvantage. The hobbyjoggers start right behind the elites.

Bailed on my workout this morning. Was already 70 +67 at 6 am. Had 3x2mi in mind but the first one felt heavy and like I'd be racing to keep it up for another 4 miles. I also had the thought that a 12k, 3x2mi and a 15k in 9 days might be overdoing it. I stopped after the first 2mi but the interesting thing is I hadn't checked my watch before I decided to stop. I ran 11:15 which is my 8k pace from this spring plus a tick or two. No wonder it felt harder than expected.

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

May 2010: 3:25

May 2016: 3:54

June 2017: 3:09

October 2018: 2:57

Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Congrats on smashing that 3 hr barrier.

AJ - In that case, if the coordinator responds then great, but if not I'll just line up as the hobbyjogger I am :).

AndyDufresne,

Do you have an updated spreadsheet with what you actually did up to this point in Chicago? Curious to see how closely you stuck to the plan.

AJ - how many races do you have on the vapors? And how many more races do you anticipate them lasting?

64 miles total: 2 marathons + 4 5ks.

They still feel great and I’m incredibly cheap so I’ll probably race in them at least thru Houston. I could see myself getting a new pair before London if that works out and moving the current pair into the workout rotation. I’ll def wear them until they fall apart.

jewbacca wrote:

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

May 2010: 3:25

May 2016: 3:54

June 2017: 3:09

October 2018: 2:57

Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Congrats on smashing that 3 hr barrier.

AJ - In that case, if the coordinator responds then great, but if not I'll just line up as the hobbyjogger I am :).

Agreed, wonderful stuff, GT. I concur also that RGW can do it too. The infectious energy on this thread provides way more than the 4% of VaporFlys...

Comments...

Smoove, Andy, AJ, Gordon: Wow. Great day for you guys. Hard work, and smart work, pays off. Congratulations.

Stone Cutter: Condolences again on your friend's passing. One thing I've found with running is that while I'm mostly alone - possibly because I'm alone - it's a time when thoughts of people I haven't seen in a while, including people who have passed on, come to mind and are most present for me. I imagine that your friend will be with you often when you run.

TDR: Really happy to hear that things have been looking up for you, and hope the transition to group training goes well. 3:45 AM sounds pretty rough, to be honest! And again, great work that you’re doing with the kids.

Working Harder: Hope you enjoyed/are enjoying the trip! You’ll be happy you got that rest once Mr. Jenkins starts working on you…

Harrier: Nice solid week. I like the idea of incorporating some low-key quality and slowly ramping it up.

Jeff: Love the report, and congratulations on the win! Sounds like my kind of race. (I remember running a 10k that used an antique cannon for a starting gun. Problem: they didn’t tell anyone they were going to be shooting the cannon, they just did it kaboom!!! out of nowhere, so everyone spent a few seconds staggering around wondering what had just happened before we realized that we were supposed to be starting the race.)

RGMW: Understand the disappointment with the half. Don’t beat yourself up about it, though. Thirteen miles at right about goal race pace is a good hard workout. Give yourself the recovery you need and go from there.

RRR: Keep it rolling.

th3bt: Congratulations on the half – impressive performance after the midweek long run, and the hamstring issues. Hope you got yourself some of the famous persimmons!

Sub 6: Good to hear the knee discomfort is subsiding. I’ve done that bang-on-the-kneecap thing a couple of times and it’s weird how much it can mess you up. Keep being smart with it.

pewow: That race sounds like a blast. Running in mud is definitely tough, though. I remember running a super-muddy cross-country race in high school. Came up on a particularly slick downhill and my friend next to me just Superman-ed the damn thing. He popped up at the bottom having gapped me by about twenty yards while I was (a) trying not to fall and (b) trying not to fall down laughing. That was on grass, though.

Bdubs: I really enjoyed the couple of relays like that I ran, but I agree that getting your energy up at unaccustomed times, and then getting it up again, can definitely be challenging. Hope the foot sorts itself out.

Allen: Ok, 36 years. The point being, you ran 3:07 a couple of years ago. Regarding sledding hills: I know the kind you’re talking about, and we have a good one here in town, but I actually grew up sledding a kind of bobsled run that some older kids built through the woods on the hill behind our house. Kind of amazing that nobody ever wrapped themselves around a tree (or smashed into the barn at the bottom of the hill).

RunnerSam: Looking good with that long run! You should definitely take a lot of confidence from that.

Pappy: Sorry to hear that the knees are continuing to give you grief. As it happens, I’m also working on some plaster repairs around the house. Hope yours are going better than mine.

OR: Smart to take a down week after the 20-miler. Looks like the legs are responding well.

Pedro: Welcome to the thread.

slo: That’s quite a long run. Putting the tiger in the cat.

Still Improving: Good to hear your calf is coming around. Nice work with that long run.

RunnersFix: Wow. I could handle the getting lost part, but that’s about it.

krishna: Enjoy the cross-country race and the mountainous running. Hope you have some real fall weather coming your way.

jewbacca: Interesting to see your training at this point in your marathon prep (namely a good ways out). In particular, curious about the way the Saturday track workout fits into your training at this stage.

@tentimes, I have a spreadsheet with what I did, but the plan listed on the spreadsheet changed considerably from week to week when my goals were adjusted, based on 10 day forecasts during the summer, etc. I just posted a brief recap of my training in the sub 2h30 thread on this forum but didn't want to spam this thread.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WSEUhnsI9PejfLcW3KmX31jypUgWCpgxHhuQa0cYl4s/edit#gid=942028400 The training from now through December is likely going to be a wash. I'm considering doing base-type preparation this Fall and simply trying to maintain fitness. What you can't see in the spreadsheet is what I did prior to August. From May through July I did 6 weeks in the gym followed by 6 weeks of sprint and speed work while building from ~40 to 110 mpw. For the record, since I know it came up in the race conversation, I am comfortable with my identity being public. My Strava is here https://www.strava.com/athletes/3048246

Sub 6:00 wrote:

I think I got to everyone except Andy. Apologies if I missed anyone this week.

Andy - Good run. On the plus side, you never have to feel like you have to qualify your PR as “2:27 high.” (My marathon PR ends in :56, so I usually do that. The half, however, ends in :01.) What’s next?

Cheers, I'm going to try to get to that 2:27 in December in Dallas. I'll take a couple weeks relaxed after that and ramp up again for Boston. After Boston I'm house shopping so I'll take the summer off.

I want to respond to Smoove's heart rate talk because I had a wrist HRM in Chicago on Sunday. I also happen to have a second data point (NYC 2017) where I ran a controlled hard negative split effort. It wasn't a PR, but I closed faster in that race. The difference in average HR and peak HR is pretty interesting to look at and may inform my plans for the next marathon. However, it's now 2:18 and I need to get back to work!

Great discussion here, guys. We must all feed off of each other.

Sub 6:00 - Yeah, what’s up with this weather? In any case, it looks like it will be GONE by the end of the week, with some GREAT air to follow...for lots of days, according to the extended forecast.

In any case, I felt really good this morning, esp. toward the end of the run. Felt okay to start, and then started winding it up, in a nice, controlled manner...6:27, 6:22, 5:59, 0:47. Feeling good or having things “kick in” later in a run has always been a good sign for me. Getting excited...

going faster miles an hour wrote:

jewbacca: Interesting to see your training at this point in your marathon prep (namely a good ways out). In particular, curious about the way the Saturday track workout fits into your training at this stage.

I structured my Houston training on Daniels' Plan A from the 2nd edition. After the base phase the plan calls for a 6 week VO2max block followed by 12 weeks of marathon-specific work. I'm in the middle of the VO2max phase right now. I felt like this was a great approach to round out my development as a runner. Going into the Houston HM and later on in my spring marathon build, while I felt very strong aerobically, I felt that my VO2max was underdeveloped and would limit future progress.

This is how Daniels wrote out his sample plan:

Q1 = Alternate between long-steady and LT workout

Q2 = 5k-pace workout

I can't follow that structure very well (and I don't believe his written plans are meant to be followed to the tee), because I can't get to the track during the week, I can't squeeze 20-mile runs in before work, and it doesn't make sense to do both back-to-back on Sat/Sun. So I've tried to take the big picture and apply it. The way I wrote my plan looks very roughly like this:

Sun/Mon: Either something long or hill sprints

Wed: Alternate between something marathon-specific and mixed-pace T-I-R workouts

Sat: 5k-pace on the track and lots of miles for the day

This way I have 6 dedicated VO2max workouts, 3 mixed-pace runs spending additional time at VO2max and LT, and 5 dedicated LT workouts, 2 of which are mid-week runs of 14-16 miles. The compromise is that I'm not running many true long runs (at this stage I'd define as 18+ miles). To mitigate this, I'm extending my cool down to get 16 miles on the Saturday workout and doubling to 20-22 for the day. I'm also beginning to add in a long-ish run on Sunday. I'm hoping to progress that so I get a couple 18-milers before the block finishes in 3 weeks.

I think this is in line with the goals of Daniels' VO2max block, which can simply be stated as: 1) Improve VO2max and 2) prepare the body for the marathon-specific gauntlet of the final 12 weeks.

Once this block is finished, my training will look similar to what I did in the spring.

Mon: Low volume hill sprints

Wed: Long cruise intervals or tempo

Sat: Long run with built-in quality

OR - weather is hitting here now so headed your way. This morning was the last hot humid run. Tom morn is mid 50s and 40s after that. Looking at 30s by Tuesday. Thank You Jesus! Just did a mini OR flyer before the storm hit. 5miles from 7:30 down to sub 6. Felt pretty good since I did the big workout yesterday. Looks like mid 40s to 50 for my race sun morn.

43 year old guy, 5'6", 122 lbs

PR's: 5K 17:05, 10K 34:52, Half marathon 1:16:15 (1:13:08 on a downhill half), Marathon 2:52:26 (last year)

Goal race: NYC Marathon (sub-2:45)

Sunday Sept 30

21 mile long run @6:20 0.8 mile WU/1.2 mile CD

Monday Treadmill Recovery 5 miles@7:11, 8 miles@7:29

Tuesday 10 mile Track tempo @ 5:45, 2 mile WU + CD

Wednesday Treadmill (Orange Theory Fitness HIIT) 4.3 miles@5:37, 4.3 miles@7:11

Thursday Treadmill 2x5000 (16:33, 16:19), 1 mile WU, 0.8 miles CD, 8.2 miles@6:40

Friday Treadmill 3.1 miles@ 6:43, 4.5 miles@6:57 (Easy with Strides)

Saturday 5K@12:09 (ran with wife and daughter), 1 mile @ 10:30 (kid fun run)

Sunday Half Marathon Race 1:16:15

Kind of haphazard running but using the Hanson's Advanced Plan as my base with modifications

I wonder if I am on track to hit my goals at NYC Marathon.

Bruin1996 wrote:

43 year old guy, 5'6", 122 lbs

PR's: 5K 17:05, 10K 34:52, Half marathon 1:16:15 (1:13:08 on a downhill half), Marathon 2:52:26 (last year)

Goal race: NYC Marathon (sub-2:45)

Sunday Sept 30

21 mile long run @6:20 0.8 mile WU/1.2 mile CD

Monday Treadmill Recovery 5 miles@7:11, 8 miles@7:29

Tuesday 10 mile Track tempo @ 5:45, 2 mile WU + CD

Wednesday Treadmill (Orange Theory Fitness HIIT) 4.3 miles@5:37, 4.3 miles@7:11

Thursday Treadmill 2x5000 (16:33, 16:19), 1 mile WU, 0.8 miles CD, 8.2 miles@6:40

Friday Treadmill 3.1 miles@ 6:43, 4.5 miles@6:57 (Easy with Strides)

Saturday 5K@12:09 (ran with wife and daughter), 1 mile @ 10:30 (kid fun run)

Sunday Half Marathon Race 1:16:15

Kind of haphazard running but using the Hanson's Advanced Plan as my base with modifications

I wonder if I am on track to hit my goals at NYC Marathon.

What does 2x5000 in 16:xx mean if your 5k PR is 17:05?

Pretty sure your half PR is on par with AJ and he just ran 2:40.

Gordon, have really enjoyed following your training and loved the long race report. Leaving it all out there is satisfying - you capture it perfectly (emphasis mine). Congratulations again on joining the sub-3 club. Looking forward to what you decide to do for future cycles. Stone Cutter has mentioned it and I believe Smoove has alluded to it, but I get the sense you'd make a great coach. You catch the subtleties, listen to your body, and synthesize the data better than most.

I appreciate the vote of confidence. I can assure you I'll be leaving what I have. Looked at the very preliminary forecast, and it's looking near perfect. Hope to see you at Boston 2020!

Bruin1996: Welcome.. Looks like you are well ahead of your goal. 2:45? You may be able to get in the 2:30's.

pedro_FL: Welcome. The first week back. Looking good. What kind of mileage are you going to build to or are you staying around 40?

slo-twitch: Good looking week!

gfmh: Nice week! I always get a kick out of your weeks. The names of your runs alone make me want to keep trying. I cheat on my plaster repairs. I found a while ago it is easiest to just grind a belt sander into the cracks, dig them out some, spray paint the plaster and then use drywall mud. Anything loose I just break out and fill in with drywall.

Still Improving: Great week! Glad the soleus came around.

RunnersFix: Welcome. Big week!

krishna: Nice week! I think you can do 27. Looking forward to hearing about the race. I'm going to have to look up "The Michigan workout." My son's team does a variation too but I don't know anything about it.

jewbacca: Nice week! You're flying in that heat. 3 episode twilight zone run. Very nice.

Andy Dufresne: Great job in Chicago!!! That is a fast time.

pewow: 3x18-5k's would be impressive. Kiddos are good. The boy was in the 16:20's. Daughter just had practice. She keeps making the travel team so she must be doing something right. I got a kick out of her telling me "Dad I don't think the tryouts are over." I just responded with "Honey, they never are"

AJ,GT&Smoove Thanks for the race reports and the training summaries. 3 great examples of very intelligent training. Even when everything didn't go right you all pulled it together when it mattered.

Sitting at The Miami airport (this place is terrible) catching up on all the good stuff here. AJ, Smoove, Gordon, great recaps and inspiring. Tomorrow marks my first day with Mr Jenkins as the official coach and I’m more motivated than ever. Vacation was perfect to get the fun out and it’s the RRR no drinks from here on out approach now. Fifteen weeks to get this motor in shape for race day and I’m committed to providing it only the best and proper fuel. Lean, mean, 2:39 machine coming soon. Nate has me around a 2:42 current marathon pace so I think we can do it.