Excellent Article By Ron Clarke on the Importance of LONG STEADY DISTANCE RUNS

If they ere doing long runs at "only" 5 minute pace you would think Clarke could have done a better Marathon.

The record was 2:12 wrote:

If they ere doing long runs at "only" 5 minute pace you would think Clarke could have done a better Marathon.

My guess is that it was probably closer to a 5:30 average pace, progressing down to sub 5 min for the last several miles. But I wouldn't doubt that he could average sub 5 min miles no problem. We forget how impressive his 10000m world record was (he probably could've ran a sub 27 min time on modern synthetic tracks). Quote from this blog (I'll link down below), "This is a quote from Brian Lenton's Interviews book, "Ron's 10,000 meter world record(27:39) in Oslo 1965 without a pacemaker and on cinders(sometimes in lanes 2 and 3 because of the condition of the track)". If I recall right he only ran the marathon once, so who knows what he could have ran if he put his mind to it, sub 2:08?

Clarke told me that he was too heavy to run marathons well. I replied that Clayton was big and Ron replied that Clayton was both taller and lighter than he (Clarke) was. He gave me the specific inches and pounds differences but I don't remember them now. I believe that he ran three marathons seriously in his prime but the only specific one I can recall now was Tokyo. He also did another marathon or two after his retirement.

If he was running today, with all the attention and money that you can get in the marathon, he might have run more of them seriously. If so, it's hard to believe he wouldn't have gone significantly faster than 2:20 but it's unlikely he'd have agreed that he could run under 2:10.

to my knowledge he started six marathons but finished only the first three. for his debut in Oct 1961 he ran 2:53.09 for 5th place in the Victoria State Championship at Mentone, Australia. he ran 2:24.38 in Melbourne, July 1963. then in the Tokyo Olympic Games he finished 9th in 2:20:26. he had a DNF in Fukuoka in October 1965, he had a DNF in the Commonwealth Games marathon in Kingston, Jamaica in 1966, and he had a DNF in the Australian championship at Adelaide in Sept 1967.

cheers.

His weight was a kind of lame excuse. I really doubt he and Clayton were much different in size.

The real reason was likely lack of surface preparation and inappropriate shoes to at least mask that lack of preparation.

Running on grass barefoot and on trails is no prep for running on hard roads in the shoes they had back then.

Clayton hammered the roads so he was ready for them.

The numbers were in the neighborhood of 3 inches shorter and 20 pounds heavier but that may not be exact. What Ron told me about his training which is not in his write up is that typically on Thursdays he did not run at the race course. He and Clayton did a long and very fast run, up to 18 miles, together. This was a regular session. On Saturdays when he was not racing he and Clayton ran together again. Typically they'd leave one of their houses and run to where ever Ron's older brother Jack's football team was playing. His wife would drive to the match with a change of clothes for them, they'd watch the match, and drive home. Both of those runs were on roads.

In those days marathons were not the deal they are now. If he'd done more of them it's hard to think he wouldn't have run faster and actually, 2:20 and 2:24 were very good times in those years. But he really didn't seem to have had much interest in running marathons being as good on the track as he was. Clayton, on the other hand, always said he'd rather have been a miler but ran marathons because that was where he could be the best.

Thanks Cottonshirt. I do recall the DNF at Fukuoka now that you mention it as well as the 2:24.

The record was 2:12 wrote:

If they ere doing long runs at "only" 5 minute pace you would think Clarke could have done a better Marathon.

You have to remember that in those days he ran 3 races in 5 days while in Europe. He was a star and they came out to see him. He made a (cough cough) stipend racing.

There was only a couple of marathons of any note a year, and he could run 5 k and 10 k as frequently as he wanted to.

He ran way more 5 and 10s than he could ever have run marathons.

Lydiard told me that every year as the European season was approaching, Ron would get calls from many meet directors wanting him to run in their meets. Ron would always agree providing that the directors sent him a full fare, refundable, round trip, plane ticket from Melbourne to the airport closest to their meet. The cost then was around $1,000. Ron would get maybe twenty of those each year, cash in all but one, and pocket the refunds.

I either forgot or else maybe it wasn't noteworthy.

What was Clarke's fastest marathon time?

Clarke: "When I trained with him [Clayton], he would just get going at 18 or 19 miles.

I've seen him dead tired at 13 miles, much more tired than me.

Yet when I really started to tire at 18 miles or so, Derek was still going, still going."

dunes runner wrote:

I either forgot or else maybe it wasn't noteworthy.

What was Clarke's fastest marathon time?

Must not be noteworthy. It's given five posts above yours.

What a great thread. Keep the comments coming. I have become a Ron Clarke fan, as some here have said that my training is very much like his. I also like Jack Foster, for similar reasons. In any case, I am not Clarke or Foster, but am decent for a guy who will be 50 in five months. I run long steady-state progressions (most of which are hilly) nearly every day...and I run by feel, and do not use a schedule or plan. Ran 2:49:01 in March of this year (master’s win and PR).

In any case, I am enjoying the discussion—thanks, guys.

Thanks all for those interesting info.

For those who read French, here is an article from a Swiss magazine of 1972, which contains an article by Clarke (p. 21), purporting to correct some of the misconceptions that van Aaken held about Clarke's training. At least that's how the magazine presents the article. The van Aaken's article, on "What tomorrow's runner will be like" is in the same issue (p. 7):

http://www.spiridon.ch/Revue/1972/Spiridon%20005.pdf

HRE wrote:

If he was running today, with all the attention and money that you can get in the marathon, he might have run more of them seriously. If so, it's hard to believe he wouldn't have gone significantly faster than 2:20 but it's unlikely he'd have agreed that he could run under 2:10.

That's total BS.

Clarke ran as fast as he could with his training, which is what this thread is about.

He would have had to train differently, i.e. "better," to run any faster.

in the 60s a lot of runners - even good ones - weren't that great at running marathons. I think it took a while for athletes and coaches to fully understand and appreciate the event. The pacing used to be all over the place.

as a slight aside - I would urge everyone to watch this documentary about the 1964 Olympic marathon. It is outstanding in so many ways. The cinematography is awesome and the music is mesmerising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxOdp8ka25U

Yes, with his 27:39 (potentially better) ability and today's more enlightened overall marathon prep regimes, It's likely he could have got under 2:10 even if he were "too big" and not an ideal marathoner.

mrpastry wrote:

Yes, with his 27:39 (potentially better) ability and today's more enlightened overall marathon prep regimes, It's likely he could have got under 2:10 even if he were "too big" and not an ideal marathoner.

Considering how his 10k PR was on a cinder track that would equal to about a 27:14 10k time which according to VDOT that equals to a 2:05 marathon time.

for reference

in the 64 Tokyo OG, Clarke went through 25k in 1.18.02 (2.11.26 pace for marathon) - three minutes ahead of eventual runner-up Basil Heatley who ended up clocking 2.16.19 while Clarke finished in 2.20.26.

Bikila went through 25k in 1.16.40 (2.09.15 pace) 15 seconds ahead of Jim Hogan who eventually dropped out at 22 miles while still in second place.

I find it more interesting that the training he details yielded a 13:16 on a cinder track.