Well that didn't take long: Asbel Kiprop gives up fight to prove innocence - Says he doesn't have resources to fight IAAF

Coevett wrote:

Rekrunner's focus on Spain as his perfect example, really just highlights his flawed methodology.

Before 1990, just 2 Spanish runners broke 3:35 for the 1500m. Between 1990 and 2004, 10 did so. Fermin Cacho ran 3:28, at the age of 28, when at his peak as a 23 year old Olympic Champion he could run only 3:32.

Not sure where you (RekRunner) is getting your figures from. You seem to be saying that because Spain didn't produce a ridiculous number of sub 3:30 and sub 13:00 runners like Morocco, this means EPO doesn't work. It's almost laughable.

The answer you will get will be something like because all the Spanish were not running sub 12 mins or at least 13 mins (like Moorcroft before EPO) for 5000m or sub 3 20 or 3 30 for 1500m then EPO does not work and in fact the Spanish were "slow".

An important point to also take into account is that the funding from the Spanish federation to their elite distance runners was largely based on performances in major championships (European and global) so the seasons of the elite Spanish groups were based on peaking for championships rather than for fast times (of course the 2 are not completely unrelated). If you look at the Spanish results in distance running in major championships from the 1990s through to the early 2000s, they were much improved from their performances in the 1980s ranging from 1500m through to the marathon. The Spanish men won a world cross team medal in the 1990s at a time of extreme African dominance. For some reason Rekrunner thinks that championship performances do not count as showing that EPO works; he must think that championship performances are sort of down to luck or tactics rather than physical/endurance performance ....

rekrunner wrote:

What do you think makes Monaco track so special?

Why do think it is legitimate to discard times at the Monaco track?

i have gone over this numerous times, but as you have said over and over and over you dont feel like reading my posts cause they arnt worth your time. this isnt MY opinion, you spout your opinion ALL the time as if its FACT AND TRUTH....i POST DATA then try to make LOGICAL conclusions off of what is THERE

but before we get into monaco for the 90th time, why didnt you answer my other question

you dont believe the ~4% gain....so what do you think is the gain? all that sh*t you talked to me and now you admit EPO works and kenyans are abusing it, but now your beef is the 4%. so since your so f*cking much smarter than everyone else, just late on the train, what is the % gain?

now back to monaco

in 2010 monaco got a face lift on its surface. in the 1500m very strangely people run 2-3 seconds FASTER than ANYWHERE ELSE EVER. in andrew wheatings case 4 seconds!

its pretty easy to see something is off when you look at the 1500m ALL time (you know the list that everyone assumes im so f*cking dumb i have never seen it). so you go to the list and then highlight all the times from monaco since 2010

1 3:26.00 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Roma 14.07.1998

2 3:26.12 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Bruxelles 24.08.2001

3 3:26.34 Bernard Lagat KEN 12.12.74 2 Bruxelles 24.08.2001

4 3:26.45 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1rA Zürich 12.08.1998

5 3:26.69 Asbel Kiprop KEN 30.06.89 1 Monaco 17.07.2015

6 3:26.89 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1rA Zürich 16.08.2002

7 3:26.96 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Rieti 08.09.2002

8 3:27.21 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1rA Zürich 11.08.2000

9 3:27.34 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Monaco 19.07.2002

10 3:27.37 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Nice 12.07.1995

11 3:27.40 Bernard Lagat KEN 12.12.74 1 Zürich 06.08.2004

12 3:27.52 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Monaco 25.07.1995

13 3:27.64 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 2 Zürich 06.08.2004

13 3:27.64 Silas Kiplagat KEN 20.08.89 1 Monaco 18.07.2014

15 3:27.65 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Sevilla 24.08.1999

16 3:27.72 Asbel Kiprop KEN 30.06.89 1 Monaco 19.07.2013

17 3:27.91 Bernard Lagat KEN 12.12.74 2 Monaco 19.07.2002

18 3:28.12 Noah Ngeny KEN 02.11.78 2rA Zürich 11.08.2000

19 3:28.21+ Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Roma 07.07.1999

20 3:28.37 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Monaco 09.09.1995

20 3:28.37 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Monaco 08.08.1998

22 3:28.38 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Saint-Denis 06.07.2001

23 3:28.40 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Bruxelles 05.09.2003

24 3:28.45 Asbel Kiprop KEN 30.06.89 2 Monaco 18.07.2014

25 3:28.51 Bernard Lagat KEN 12.12.74 3rA Zürich 11.08.2000

26 3:28.57 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1rA Zürich 11.08.1999

27 3:28.6+ Noah Ngeny KEN 02.11.78 2 Roma 07.07.1999

28 3:28.73 Noah Ngeny KEN 02.11.78 2 Sevilla 24.08.1999

29 3:28.75 Taoufik Makhloufi ALG 29.04.88 2 Monaco 17.07.2015

30 3:28.79 Abdelati Iguider MAR 25.03.87 3 Monaco 17.07.2015

31 3:28.80 Elijah Manangoi KEN 05.01.93 1 Monaco 21.07.2017

32 3:28.81 Mohamed Farah GBR 23.03.83 2 Monaco 19.07.2013

32 3:28.81 Ronald Kwemoi KEN 18.09.95 3 Monaco 18.07.2014

34 3:28.84 Noah Ngeny KEN 02.11.78 1 Paris 21.07.1999

35 3:28.86 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Rieti 06.09.1992

36 3:28.88 Asbel Kiprop KEN 30.06.89 1 Monaco 20.07.2012

37 3:28.91 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1rA Zürich 13.08.1997

38 3:28.92 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Bruxelles 22.08.1997

39 3:28.93 Noah Ngeny KEN 02.11.78 1 München 11.09.1999

39 3:28.93 Mohamed Farah GBR 23.03.83 4 Monaco 17.07.2015

41 3:28.95 Fermin Cacho ESP 16.02.69 2rA Zürich 13.08.1997

42 3:28.98 Mehdi Baala FRA 17.08.78 2 Bruxelles 05.09.2003

43 3:29.02 Daniel Kipchirchir Komen KEN 27.11.84 1r2 Roma 14.07.2006

44 3:29.05 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Bruxelles 23.08.1996

45 3:29.06 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1rA Zürich 17.08.2001

46 3:29.08 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Rieti 02.09.2001

47 3:29.10 Timothy Cheruiyot KEN 20.11.95 2 Monaco 21.07.2017

48 3:29.12 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Oslo 09.07.1998

49 3:29.13 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Zürich 15.08.2003

50 3:29.14 Rashid Ramzi BRN 17.07.80 2r2 Roma 14.07.2006

51 3:29.18 Vénuste Niyongabo BDI 09.12.73 2 Bruxelles 22.08.1997

51 3:29.18 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1rA Heusden-Zolder 31.07.2004

51 3:29.18 Asbel Kiprop KEN 30.06.89 1 Ad-Dawhah 09.05.2014

thats the top 51, ending with kiprops best NON monaco time.

stop being so blind and see that El G, lagat, morceli all ran FAST times to their PR at different venues, but kiprop has only a few sub 3:30s that arnt in monaco

kiprops best monaco/best non monaco

3:26.29/3:29.18.....difference = 2.89 seconds

Silas Kiplagat best monaco/best non monaco

3:27.64/3:29.63.....difference = 1.99 seconds

Taoufik Makhloufi best monaco/best non monaco

3:28.75/3:30.40.....difference = 1.65 seconds

Abdelati Iguider best monaco/best non monaco

3:28.79/3:31.40....difference = 2.61 seconds

nick willis best monaco/best non monaco

3:29.66/3:32.17....difference = 2.51

andrew wheating best monaco/best non monaco

3:30.90/3:34?? (all i know is the article said he had a HUGE 4 second pr), he then thought for the rest of his career he was a legit 3:30 guy, like how hall thought he was a 2:04 marathon guy, and this is the cause of their mental anguish.

2017 3:37.75 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 18 MAY 2017

2016 3:38.60 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 20 MAY 2016

2015 3:38.75 Sydney (AUS) 14 MAR 2015

2014 3:38.53 Portland, OR (USA) 15 JUN 2014

2013 3:37.03 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 17 MAY 2013

2012 3:35.89 Burnaby (CAN) 10 JUN 2012

2011 3:34.39 Paris (FRA) 08 JUL 2011

2010 3:30.90 Monaco (MON) 22 JUL 2010

2009 3:40.92 Eugene, OR (USA) 24 APR 2009

2008 3:38.60 Eugene, OR (USA) 09 MAY 2008

2007 3:45.17 Eugene, OR (USA) 20 APR 2007

2006 3:54.28 Indianapolis, IN (USA) 24 JUN 2006

you see anywhere here where he was a 3:30 guy?

last

centro best monaco/non best monaco

3:30.40/3:31.96....difference = 1.56, but...

2018 3:37.96 Sydney (AUS) 17 MAR 2018

2017 3:33.41 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 18 MAY 2017

2016 3:34.09 Eugene, OR (USA) 10 JUL 2016

2015 3:30.40 Monaco (MON) 17 JUL 2015

2014 3:31.09 Monaco (MON) 18 JUL 2014

2013 3:33.58 Monaco (MON) 19 JUL 2013

2012 3:31.96 Lausanne (SUI) 23 AUG 2012

2011 3:34.46 Monaco (MON) 22 JUL 2011

2010 3:40.14 Des Moines, IA (USA) 25 JUN 2010

2009 3:36.92 Palo Alto (USA) 02 MAY 2009

2008 3:44.98 Eugene, OR (USA) 08 JUN 2008

2007 3:49.54 Indianapolis, IN (USA) 23 JUN 2007

he seems to be a 3:33ish guy everywhere else

anyways something is fishing with the 1500m there. 400m isnt off, nor is the 800m, nor is 3000m. my guess is the start and finish line are off ON purpose to make for faster times to make it appear that people are still close to EL G's alien times

How about Ali Saïdi-Sief ?

Tested positive for Nandrolone.

3:29/7:25/12:50...Wow!

rekrunner wrote:

Before 1980, 17 people ran sub-3:35.25, the first being Jim Ryun in 1967.

During the 1980's, 50 more people ran sub-3:35.25.

These 67 produced 345 performances and were from all over: 10 were British, 9 American, 9 Kenyan, 7 French, 6 German, 3 Australian, 3 New Zealand, 2 Irish, 2 Italian, 2 East German, and 1 Moroccan and 1 Russian.

world stats wrote:

Out of a world population of ~5 billion; sounds like 3-35 1500ms were commonplace back in the 1980s ....

[/quote]

you see that, only 9 kenyans broke 3:35 in the 80s, behind the brits and americans...i dont know where you found your data a link would be helpful, but whatever i will do the best i can with what i can find

1990

1,500 metres

RANK 1990 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 3:32.60

2. Peter Elliott (GBR) 3:32.69

3. Gennaro di Napoli (ITA) 3:32.78

4. Wilfred Kirochi (KEN) 3:32.90

5. Steve Cram (GBR) 3:33.03 (man that is soooo scrub like pathetic!!!)

1991

1,500 metres

Main race this year: World Championships 1,500 metres

RANK 1991 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 3:31.00

2. Simon Doyle (AUS) 3:31.96

3. Fermín Cacho (ESP) 3:32.03

4. Peter Elliott (GBR) 3:32.94

5. Saïd Aouita (MAR) 3:33.28 (man 5th best in the world again was a 3:33 SCRUB!!! i thought kenyans had these dime a dozen!!!)

1,500 metres

RANK 1992 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 3:28.86

2. David Kibet (KEN) 3:32.13

3. William Kemei (KEN) 3:32.41

4. Wilfred Kirochi (KEN) 3:33.49 (WTF? must be a typo, wasnt this year 2 of rosa in kenya?)

5. Fermín Cacho (ESP) 3:32.69

RANK 1993 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 3:29.20

2. Fermín Cacho (ESP) 3:32.01

3. Abdi Bile (SOM) 3:32.83

4. Mohamed Suleiman (QAT) 3:33.29 (WTF 2 scrubs at 3:33!!! this is the worlds best times!! where are the dime a dozen kenyans?)

5. Simon Doyle (AUS) 3:33.39

1,500 metres

RANK 1994 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 3:30.61

2. Vénuste Niyongabo (BDI) 3:30.66

3. Azzedine Sediki (MAR) 3:32.71

4. Mohamed Suleiman (QAT) 3:32.73

5. Hicham El Guerrouj (MAR) 3:33.61 (WTF is this!?!? the man who was going to get the WR was only 5th, what a scrubb 3:33 guy, he should have know the KENYANS have dime a dozen 3:33 guys!!)

1995

cant find any results for top 5.....but 1994 seems to have been a magical year so the 1995 rankings would have shown, i bet komens 3:29 is on there

nice after this i cant find any results, but interesting as well 1996 is when rosa jr, joined his dad

so check this

World records

Men

Event Athlete Nation Performance Meeting Place Date

800 m Wilson Kipketer Denmark 1:41.73[1] Sweden Stockholm, Sweden 7 July

800 m Wilson Kipketer Denmark 1:41.24 Switzerland Zürich, Switzerland 13 August

800 m Wilson Kipketer Denmark 1:41.11 Germany Cologne, Germany 24 August

5000 m Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia 12:41.86 Switzerland Zürich, Switzerland 13 August

5000 m Daniel Komen Kenya 12:39.74 Belgium Brussels, Belgium 22 August

10,000 m Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia 26:31.32 Norway Oslo, Norway 4 July

10,000 m Paul Tergat Kenya 26:27.85 Belgium Brussels, Belgium 22 August

3000 m steeplechase Wilson Boit Kipketer Kenya 7:59.08 Switzerland Zürich, Switzerland 13 August

3000 m steeplechase Bernard Barmasai Kenya 7:55.72 Germany Cologne, Germany 24 August

the same year rosa jr joined his papa lol

These are both great posts on the Spanish. Hard to refute this information - I think rekrunner will go home devastated now.

He did give it a good college try though. ?

This idea that Spain is one of the top abusers of EPO does not come from me. In every EPO thread, probably since the start of letsrun, Morocco and Spain are the two main countries that repeatedly come up. I just went with it to show that Spain didn't perform that well at the top, compared to other non-Africans and compared to 1990. So either Spain is dirty, and other non-Africans are equally dirty, given the same performance, or non-Africans are all clean, and so is Spain, or Spain is dirty, but dirty doesn't matter because they still perform the same as the rest of the non-Africans. To the settle the matter about the status of Spain, I'll refer your question about the Spanish abusing EPO to the hundreds of posters who tell me things like Cacho is suspicious simply because he is Spanish, and all these Operation Puertos, and Galgos, etc., and the Spanish World Marathon Champions, etc. While Moroccans run faster than Russia and Spain, and all non-Africans in general, and Moroccans are busted a lot for EPO, Moroccans are far ahead of East Africans in doping, and they are far behind the East Africans in performance, despite being the big elephants in the room: Quantity of the men's events respectively (1500m, 3000m, 3000m stp; 5000m, 10000m, marathon): - how many North-Africans beat the "1980s cutoff": 8, 12, 5, 13, 5, 6 - how many East-Africans beat the "1980s cutoff": 16, 49, 25, 91, 101, 183 Quality of the men's events respectively: - the best 5 North-Africans "progressed": 0.9%, 1.5%, 1.1%, 1.5%, 0.9%, 0.9% - the best 5 East-Africans "progressed": 1.1%, 1.6%, 2.3%, 2.6%, 3.0%, 3.2% What you can see, is that Moroccans were competitive in short events in quality, like the 1500m and 3000m, but then in the longer events, they fall behind the East Africans, and in the 10000m and marathon, they are closer to, but still better than, the non-Africans. What about Algeria? Are they small elephants? They rarely come up as often as Morocco, as examples of dopers, but they rival Morocco in quality for 1500m and 3000m, and have 4 men in 1500 (!), and 2 men in 3000.

What's The Deal? wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Just because something was possible, doesn't mean that it happened.

After all, EPO in the 1990s was possible, available, and undetectable, and look how hard everyone is trying to convince me that non-Africans worldwide were afraid to use it, in large quantities, and that all the best non-Africans are were actually clean.

0/10

FFS, read Coevett's post on the Spanish.

when i have to see this over and over and over it annoys me to no end rek

how many times do me and others have to SHOW you.

cacho was AIDED on EPO, and go and check runners from the 90s, and see if there is a JUMP in progression that is significant.

you will always say two things

"they are too slow for me to consider that they used EPO"

or

"im sure they changed venues, got a new coach, stepped up their training and diet"

the 90s was THE DREAM time for EPO in kenya and eithiopia, where the euros on EPO as well? YES, you just wont accept it cause THEY are too slow for your bullsh*t agenda

like say this guy

2002 3:51.05 Cape Town (RSA) 08 MAR 2002

1998 3:43.33 Cardiff (GBR) 04 AUG 1998

1996 3:37.35 Köln (GER) 16 AUG 1996

1995 3:34.76 Monaco (MON) 09 SEP 1995

1994 3:35.83 London (GBR) 15 JUL 1994

1993 3:46.77 Buffalo (USA) 18 JUL 1993

he was slow and im sure a mouthy arrogant guy but thats besides the point. but looking at his progression it appears he got on the sauce prob on the off season build up of 94

you know a nice 4.82% gain....but like you and others 3:34-35 (sometimes 3:33) is considered SCRUB STATUS

the reality is simple. the best EUROs where prob playing soccer in the 90s, so the best runners were SCRUB 3:45 guys, who could only attain 3:34ish with EPO. there was no more 3:33-34 clean guys in europe that would have been sub 3:30s cause they were playing soccer...oh wait cacho...whoops

1997 3:28.95 Zürich (SUI) 13 AUG 1997

1996 3:32.58 Monaco (MON) 10 AUG 1996

1995 3:34.25 Monaco (MON) 25 JUL 1995

1994 3:35.27 Helsinki (FIN) 09 AUG 1994

1993 3:32.01 Zürich (SUI) 04 AUG 1993

1992 3:32.69 Zürich (SUI) 19 AUG 1992

1991 3:32.03 Zürich (SUI) 07 AUG 1991

looks like cacho got on ol EPO in 96...kinda the same year the kenyans CRUSHED WRs...same year rosa jr joined his dad in kenya

maybe cacho wanted to be clean, but when he realized like you and all the other haters on LR, that 3:33-35 is SCRUB status he hopped on the sauce and BOOOM now he is one of the best of all time at the time.

yet you still cry and temper tantrum that we are all hating on you rek, "look how hard everyone is trying to convince me that non-Africans worldwide were afraid to use it"

you sound like a whiny brat. people were using EPO big time in the 90s, and in HUGE amounts down there in kenya from the help of canova and rosa.

stop whining rek, stop trolling. its cool you finally admitted that EPO works and kenyans have been abusing it, but dont cry foul that people are attacking you with this nonsense. i dont know how many times we have to explain this to you that EPO was being used in europe (and the US im sure, look at bob kennedy, 13:20s, then boom 12:58! nothing to see there)

cacho was fast but you dont like to use him just like ramzi. since you refuse to even CONSIDER that EPO will give a 4% gain you always give the excuse of better training, better coach, better diet.....but NEVER EPO

And now we are back to "this means EPO doesn't work". Great! One step forward and one step back. Abascal and Gonzalez were great runners, no doubt, as were the 6 Spanish runners faster than 13:12, and the 23 runners faster than 13:25. When I looked at performance, I concerned myself with performance appearing on the top of the all time list, initially stopping at the 5th fastest runner by 1990. I guess you can say stopping at the top-5 of 1990 makes the methodology flawed. Everyone is free to do a similar analysis choosing their own cutoff. In the 5000m, the only Spanish runners faster than 1990 #5 Henry Rono (13:06) were Alberto Garcio, Jesus Espana, and Alemayehu Bezabeh. Only Spanish Ethiopian Alemayehu Bezabeh succeeded in running a time faster than the 1990 Top-5 average. Looking at diminishing returns in reverse, I do not doubt that EPO will have greater effects for performers with slower times, as we go down deeper and deeper into the alltime list. Regarding "Spain didn't produce a ridiculous number of sub 3:30 and sub 13:00 runners like Morocco," I did not bring up Morocco, "Doped to the Max" did. I did not compare Spain to Morocco, but compared Spain to other non-Africans, relative to 1990.

Outside of EPO, I never assumed anything about what stars before 1990 used or didn't use. I consider you saying EPO of the 1990s is as good as blood transfusions and steroids of the 1980s a concession that EPO isn't the powerful endurance drug as often claimed.

Two questions: - hematological values drop precipitously for whom? - how quickly does performance drop?

Doped to the Max wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

They've done a lot of altitude studies, and the results on non-elite athletes averaging around 1-2%. The individual results range from as high as 6%, to a decrement of 1%.

Interesting meta-analysis on your Holy Grail of altitude training. For one, hematological values drop precipitously upon the return to sea level (so, if an altitude trained athlete is going to sea level for several weeks of competition the gains are pretty much lost). Secondly, there's considerable individual variability and just like with rEPO, there are "responders" & "non-responders." And a "significant increase in EPO level during altitude training does not guarantee improvement of hematological variables after the return to sea level."

I did.

What's The Deal? wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Just because something was possible, doesn't mean that it happened.

After all, EPO in the 1990s was possible, available, and undetectable, and look how hard everyone is trying to convince me that non-Africans worldwide were afraid to use it, in large quantities, and that all the best non-Africans are were actually clean.

0/10

FFS, read Coevett's post on the Spanish.

why oh why must you argue with something so f*cking dumb?

why is morraco have more runners doing better in the EPO era than spain? man rek, for someone who claims to have such an insane IQ and so much smarter than everyone on here you are DENSE, or your one of the most annoying trolls of all time. how hard is it to use YOUR brain and google? for me its not that hard and according to you and others, IM A FUCKING MORON

"Spain national football team celebrating its victory at the UEFA Euro 2008 Championship in Madrid.

Sport in Spain in the second half of the 20th century has always been dominated by football."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Spain

and since you prob complain about wiki

"Most Popular Sports in Spain"

1) Football (Soccer)

2) Basketball

3) Tennis

4) Roller Hockey

5) Motor Sports

6) Team Handball

7) Cycling

8) Golf

9) Water Sports

10) Gymnastics

https://mostpopularsports.net/in-spain

on both links track and field isnt listed AT ALL

now lets try the UK

Athletics

Athletics does not have a very high profile in Britain on a week-in week-out basis, but it leaps to prominence during major championships. The level of attention received by successful British athletes is illustrated by the fact that athletes have won far more BBC Sports Personality of the Year awards than practitioners of any other sport. The governing body of British Athletics is UK Athletics. There are also semi-independent athletics associations in each of the home nations.

Over the last few decades British athletes have usually won between one and three gold medals at the Olympics; the 2012 Games in London saw three British athletes win four golds (single golds by Jessica Ennis and Greg Rutherford, and two by Mo Farah). Traditionally Britain was strongest in men's athletics, especially middle distance running, but over the last 20 years success has been achieved in a wide range of events and British women have closed the attainment gap on the men. However, there remain serious concerns about the depth of the sport in Britain, with the number of club athletes reportedly in decline

you see that.... serious concern because of DECLINE....that means in the UK its a dying sport with mostly scrubs. without Mo, UK would be a joke

now just a quick look on google and in KENYA (yeah i know el k and the other brits pretending to be kenyans will argue), that after soccer, TRACK AND FIELD/DISTANCE RUNNING is the # most important and popular sport in kenya....you notice in the UK its on the decline for 20 yrs, but in kenya its NUMBER 2!

http://www.kenya-advisor.com/kenya-sports.html

http://www.kenyabrussels.com/index.php?menu=2&leftmenu=43&page=53

http://kenyapage.net/sports/

https://www.takethemagicstep.com/news-events/sports-stories/in-kenya-running-is-not-a-popular-sport-but-a-necessity-and-an-opportunity/

how hard is it to see

you get scrubs cause track is a dying sport in UK and europe, they use EPO and still are scrubs in your mind....in kenya and morocco where track is more POPULAR and a national PRIDE thing, you get way more top talent, then you give them EPO and they are "wow" holy f*cking sh*t how is it possible, they are FASTER than everyone else.

i have shown multiple times that EL G and Kiprop were VERY VERY VERY identical to jim ryun at 18-19yrs old...yet somehow in your mind, those 2 where able to DROP 6+ seconds and ryun couldnt even drop .6 seconds. make the excuse he was injury prone etc, things were amateur etc. jim ryun was just as good as them 30yrs before, and they couldnt run faster than him UNTIL they got on the sauce. thats REALITY

m!ndweak wrote:

anyways something is fishing with the 1500m there. 400m isnt off, nor is the 800m, nor is 3000m. my guess is the start and finish line are off ON purpose to make for faster times to make it appear that people are still close to EL G's alien times

+1

I agree...it would have to be the start/finish line - it can't be tailwinds or anything like that. Lol

No, I'm not being ignorant or trolling, nor am I just clowning around. By your suggesting "(I) think blood doping is more effective and produces bigger gains in endurance performance", it seems that you didn't really understand the point. In case you are unaware, some people claim that EPO is far superior than previous techniques, like blood transfusions of the '80s, with or without steroids. They called it a game changer, presumably because it changed the game, doing more than the "SAME results". For example, EPO was responsible for bringing the 1500m time down to 3:26, the 10K time down to 26:22, or 26:17, and marathon times down to 2:03. These things didn't happen in the "blood transfusion era", but the "EPO era". As far as I'm aware, no one ever called blood transfusions a "game changer". When you say "the SAME results", I interpret that to mean you reject any notion that EPO was superior.

How do I count a medal in a mathematical analysis based on numbers? I was never interested in answering the question if "EPO works". Just the same, can you guys make up your mind -- did Spain take EPO, or not? Is Spain a good, representative example of what EPO can do, or not? I need to clarify, did Spain try really hard to win with EPO? Did Spain take EPO in 1990, and 1991, to win bronze medals in world cross? After a third bronze in 1995, Spain disappeared from the world cross podium. Three bronze medals in world cross the 1990s is an amazing performance, don't get me wrong. How does that show EPO works? What's the logic that says EPO was a significant cause?

I actually answered your "if not 4% then what?" question. So in all these words, your answer is "got a face lift" and "start and finish line are off". If the start/finish lines were off, you would see it in the splits.

m!ndweak wrote:

you see that, only 9 kenyans broke 3:35 in the 80s, behind the brits and americans...i dont know where you found your data a link would be helpful, but whatever i will do the best i can with what i can find

Here's one for ya wrote:

How about Ali Saïdi-Sief ?

Tested positive for Nandrolone.

3:29/7:25/12:50...Wow!

Actually his best performance was the 1500m he ran in Gateshead mid-2000 in pretty terrible conditions, 3:30.82. Steve Ovett reckoned that he was in better shape than El Guerrouj or Noah Ngeny over 1500m pre Sydney but he ran 5000m instead. Just look how far ahead of the top Kenyans (notice the wet track),

I'm not sure how your being annoyed is actually my problem. To recap, - "Here's my take" said to me: "You've painted with a broad bush the assumption that all the athletes from these continents were doping" - "Coevett" argued my position assumed "Everybody dopes equally among all nations" - "What's The Deal" said "you are foolishy assuming all *non-African* fastest times are doped" and that I'm "making an idiotic claim that everyone of the five is DOPED" Regarding Spain, I tried to agree that "Spain tried really hard to dope with EPO", to which "Doped to the Max" replied, "How do you know Spain tried "really hard" to dope with rEPO? Qualify your statement because it's doesn't make sense (i.e. the "really hard" part?)" I was foolish and idiotic and not making sense, because I did not assume that any of these non-African runners were clean, or that Spain was not trying really hard to dope with EPO. Now you "have to SHOW" me, again, to your annoyance, that "cacho was AIDED on EPO" and you don't know "how many times we have to explain this (to me) that EPO was being used in europe". Apparently you are preaching to the choir. BTW I thought Cacho was FAST.

m!ndweak wrote:

when i have to see this over and over and over it annoys me to no end rek

how many times do me and others have to SHOW you.

cacho was AIDED on EPO, and go and check runners from the 90s, and see if there is a JUMP in progression that is significant.

...

i dont know how many times we have to explain this to you that EPO was being used in europe (and the US im sure, look at bob kennedy, 13:20s, then boom 12:58! nothing to see there)

cacho was fast but you dont like to use him just like ramzi. since you refuse to even CONSIDER that EPO will give a 4% gain you always give the excuse of better training, better coach, better diet.....but NEVER EPO