Even Ivy coaches say 410 to be recruited. I just don’t buy it.
Even Ivy coaches say 410 to be recruited. I just don’t buy it.
You mad, bro?
Does it add up? wrote:
Even Ivy coaches say 410 to be recruited. I just don’t buy it.
You are correct. A TON of D1 schools will recruit you with slower than 4:10. In fact, the vast majority will.
"You are correct. A TON of D1 schools will recruit you with slower than 4:10. In fact, the vast majority will."
Not to a top track/xc school with a full scholarship. Maybe partial scholarship or none. Recruited vs. recruited with full scholarship are vastly different.
It's easier to set a high standard and then make selective exceptions than it is to set a lower standard and then have to explain to a whole bunch of 4:20 kids who think they've met your standard why you can't recruit them.
How may recruiting spots typically get scholarship money and how many don’t? The first question is whether you have a better chance of getting into the school as a recruited athlete even if no money is involved.
I often see the 12.6 recruiting spots, but is this scholarships? What percent of truly recruited athletes get no money.
What is a whole bunch of 420 guys? Are there that many? How many HS seniors run 420? To the OPs point-How many recruiting spots (with or without $) are given to milers in D1 every year, and how many 420 or better guys are there that are in the mix? How many 410 and better guys are there ?
Does it add up? wrote:
Even Ivy coaches say 410 to be recruited. I just don’t buy it.
Sure, you can get on a lot of teams with slower than 4:10, but you won’t get scholarship money at most power 5 schools. At mid-majors you might.
Here’s the trouble:
Say you’re a 4:15 guy and you want to run at America State University. They’re mid-pack to bottom half in a big conference. Your 4:15 is better than what most of their guys ran in HS.
Well, America State’s head coach has a sprinting background, and so does most of his staff. He likes to keep most of the scholarship money in the events he knows best. There are already a couple schools in the conference that are perennially top-10 in XC. Coach knows he can’t compete with them, and he also knows a 4:15 guy is still a long way away from being able to score points at the conference meet. Sprinters are better bang for the buck.
No scholarship for you. You can come walk on though, we’ll have a roster spot for you.
"The first question is whether you have a better chance of getting into the school as a recruited athlete even if no money is involved."
Yes, coaches can help get you into the school if they want you.
"I often see the 12.6 recruiting spots, but is this scholarships? What percent of truly recruited athletes get no money."
There are 12.6 scholarships for men's xc/track that the coach can split any way that he/she wants. Full scholarship, 1/2, 1/4, books, really any amount. So think about a roster of 50-60 runners combined for xc/track...those 12.6 scholarships don't go too far.
Ummm...no wrote:
"You are correct. A TON of D1 schools will recruit you with slower than 4:10. In fact, the vast majority will."
Not to a top track/xc school with a full scholarship. Maybe partial scholarship or none. Recruited vs. recruited with full scholarship are vastly different.
Correct. If you want $, you’d need to be a 4:10 kind of guy. Remember, the women are getting most of the money. Guys have to be exceptional to get a piece of the pie.
Yes 12.6 is the limit for men. Many teams have about 55 on the roster of which maybe 20 are distance guys. If the distance crew gets 3 scholarships, assume 1 national qualifier gets a full ride, 2 more conference placers get 1/2 each which leaves 1 total scholarship to divide equally into the 17 other distance guys who ran between 4:08-4:20 in HS. So the 4:08 guy got 1/4 leaving 3/4 for the remaining 16 guys. The 4:10 guy possibly gets 10% or books. Oregon or Stanford won’t even talk to the guy. Sure Ivies will take 4:10 guys who get into the school. But it costs $70k per year because they have no athletic or academic aid.
I guess the question pertained to being recruited which doesn’t mean much in the internet age. Athletes fill out questionnaires and coaches respond if interested unlike the olden days. That is unless you are a 4:02 guy. D3 schools still cold call recruit though.
In general it's like this:
4:30- If you've got some other pr's and are a solid XC runner you can potentially get a walk-on spot at some lower-end DI schools, but it's going to be rough.
4:25- With enough groveling you'll be able to get onto most lower-end teams as a walk-on, and you might have a shot at SOME mid-tier schools.
4:20- You'll get a spot on most teams if you have other solid pr's. You'll have a hard time getting onto higher-end teams, but you might get some scholarship money to lower-end ones.
4:15- You can run at essentially any mid-tier school and the vast majority of top-end schools. You'll likely get a fair amount of scholarship money to most schools, but you'll still struggle to get a spot at Oregon or Stanford.
4:10- You can run at any school in the country, and you'll likely get a significant scholarship.
4:05- Top-10 schools will offer you roster spots and scholarships.
Scholar Expert wrote:
Sure Ivies will take 4:10 guys who get into the school. But it costs $70k per year because they have no athletic or academic aid.
No academic aid? That’s nowhere near true. Not relevant for this conversation but it’s completely made up.
4:10 does not get a significant scholarship at any power 5 schools. It get a small one at a few schools but nothing at most of them. The rule of thumb is that every point you score at the conference meet is worth 10% of a scholarship so a win is worth a full scholarship. That amounts to about 120 points if all came to fruition which it never does due to injuries, redshirts, and poor performances. But the math is indisputable. There were probably 40 guys in the Big Ten this year who ran 4:10. There were probably 20 guys under 4:05.
They have no academic aid or athletic scholarships. Nothing. They utilize a system of 100% need based aid. They put it in bold all over their site because they are tired of people like you calling them not beieving it. Call their administrators tomorrow so they can confirm for you. Some of these things are debatebale, but please don’t dispute facts.
Scholar Expert wrote:
Sure Ivies will take 4:10 guys who get into the school. But it costs $70k per year because they have no athletic or academic aid.
The Ivies have need-based aid, and it is exceptionally generous--all but the wealthiest families will get some, most, or (essentially) all of their expenses paid.
I wasn't on any team at my Ivy. (The same financial aid standards apply to all students, regardless of sports participation.) I got a three-quarter ride, based on family need--all scholarship, no work-study or loans. I have been reliably informed that financial aid is now *more* generous than back in my day, and that nowadays a student in a financial situation similar to my family's would pay nothing (or next to nothing) to attend.
Let me just fill you in on a little fact. You are correct. You don't "need" a 4:10 to be recruited, however, if you don't have that starting point, be prepared to become a 3k/5k, maybe even a 10k guy. That's a fact, JACK!
The Ivies are not generous. Over $150k income and you pay full fare. I have 2 at Ivies, 1 who is running and 1 who is not, and we are paying near the aforementioned $70k each which is a huge burden. By the way, son ran 4:13 junior year but it took quite a bit of work on our part to get coaches interested. So I would agree with the 4:10 senior year as the bar that they want you to get over. His 4:13 got him no scholarship offers from any major universities but several would have allowed him to walk on. The coaches did not recruit him.
Does it add up? wrote:
Even Ivy coaches say 410 to be recruited. I just don’t buy it.
There's a big difference between running sub-4:10 as a junior vs a senior.
The gig is up in the fall of your Senior year, so coaches have no idea what you'll run in outdoor as a senior.
If you run a sub 4:10 as a junior and have other supporting times (e.g., 800, 3200, XC) showing development and consistency or just a meteoric jump, then you can get a sniff from P5s and Ivies.
Or, if you're a sub-9 / 9 flat guy or NXN / FL finalist, you'll get interest. But, don't expect a full ride from a P5. And, as was said, Ivies won't give you athletic or academic $, but the coach can get you in the school.
Scholar Expert wrote:
4:10 does not get a significant scholarship at any power 5 schools. It get a small one at a few schools but nothing at most of them. The rule of thumb is that every point you score at the conference meet is worth 10% of a scholarship so a win is worth a full scholarship. That amounts to about 120 points if all came to fruition which it never does due to injuries, redshirts, and poor performances. But the math is indisputable. There were probably 40 guys in the Big Ten this year who ran 4:10. There were probably 20 guys under 4:05.
The question is how many scholarships are available to a native American? How many will go to a 20 + year old foreigner who will make the coach look better much quicker?