Road Racing men Training Thread Week Ending 2-11-18

jewbacca wrote:

In retrospect, I wish I'd combined a few progression runs or threshold workouts with the long run during my Houston buildup, and I'll probably make that adjustment in future HM builds. My basic format was:

Tues/Wed: Workout

Sat: Workout

Sun: Long run, never faster than easy pace

The Sat/Sun turnaround wasn't ideal, but it worked for my schedule.

As a concession to old age, I adopted a nine-day "week" last year, generally something like this:

Day 1 -- Long run (16-20 miles)

Day 4 -- vO2max repeats

Day 6 -- Secondary long run (12-15 miles)

Day 8 -- LT intervals or Threshold run

Day 9 -- Recovery

In my younger days, and even into my early 50s, I would often schedule my long run the day after a speed workout. My long runs were almost always at a very easy pace -- sort of a combo long run/recovery run.

Now I like to at least approach marathon pace during portions of the long runs, usually as a continuous progression.

Posting this for Pappy.

https://imgur.com/a/yEMXl

Thanks RRR. Thought you guys might like to see it. I ran a lot more doubles than I remember, I thought it was just a few days a week.

runrincerepeat wrote:

Posting this for Pappy.

https://imgur.com/a/yEMXl

"Irish boy wanted to race. HA! HA!"

Would love the story behind this one. Very cool log, pappy. The good ol' days.

What year ish was this log? age?

Curious. Those 10k times in the midst of 90+ mile weeks are stiff

I was 20 at the time. The Irish boy had to be one of the guys from ND at the time. I lived about 6 miles from their campus and met up with them now and then.

What would you guys say is a marathon indicator workout, ie. that you're ready to run a specific pace? and when would you do it?

Jeremy R wrote:

What would you guys say is a marathon indicator workout, ie. that you're ready to run a specific pace? and when would you do it?

I am unconvinced that there is any such thing. The only thing that gives me confidence that I have a shot at a particular time is a race result from a 15k or, preferably, a half marathon. But even that is not something that would make me feel confident of an outcome - I am 0-3 on hitting goal times despite good indicator races.

Jeremy R wrote:

What would you guys say is a marathon indicator workout, ie. that you're ready to run a specific pace? and when would you do it?

26.2 @ Marathon pace.

Sorry someone had to say it as someone always does on every other thread!

I think a good although not perfect indicator would be a long run 20+ with 10 at MP. If you can do that without a taper then with a taper it's likely around your actual MP. You could do 10 easy, fuel/water/change very quickly into your marathon flats, do 10@MP, then cool down if you like.

I think some of the reason for the 20+ mile runs during the builds is so you can figure out how to not hit the wall. Outside of doing some 2+ hour runs at close to marathon pace I don't think there is a very good indicator. If a goal marathon were 3 hours I'd want to do at least a 2:15-2:30 at close to target pace. Maybe even go up to 2:45 if feeling good. Just taking a half and adding 10 or seconds a mile may be risky.

Sorry, but no way Pappy. If you're fit enough to run 22 solo (2.5 hr @ 6:52) at high volume and you only run a 3 hour marathon then you had a bad race day. That's not a 3 hr marathon indicator workout. Especially if you're not too wrecked to workout the week after.

Agreed. 50% of the marathon distance at MP is a killer. 80% or more is inconceivable to me.

runrincerepeat wrote:

My schedule based on Pfitz has been

M RecoveryDouble

T General Aerobic (long single or 10/3)

W Workout usually Threshold

T General Aerobic Again

F Recovery Double

S 10 ish mile single w speed afterwards i.e. something like 8-10x100 strides

S long run

I have been wanting to do some uphill tempo work as the last 5k of my Half is 400 feet of gain (its a Bish). I thought about incorporating in my Wed workout but I feel the better spot is in my long run. Like 8 easy 3mile uphill tempo 3easy or so. This way i am getting more like 1.5 workouts some weeks.

I think you can get a lot of benefit by running a medium tempo (~6 miles @ marathon pace) and then doing hill repeats after. 6 miles doesn't have to be super specific, but it fatigues the legs in a way that the half will.

Uphill tempos at threshold effort are also, IMHO, the best LT workouts you can do. I do not have 10k hills anywhere nearby, but will use a treadmill from 4-6% and run 10k at LT using heart rate. Easy on the body and big gains from a fitness perspective.

Jeremy R wrote:

What would you guys say is a marathon indicator workout, ie. that you're ready to run a specific pace? and when would you do it?

I think indicator workouts are hard to use in general, but I'd argue there is no such thing for a marathon.

I feel like you need two fast long runs (18-20 miles) within 5% of goal pace. If you can throw those down, I feel like you have a fair chance at making it happen on race day, but nothing is guaranteed.

O - I am lucky in the fact that I can train on the last 5k of the course anytime as it’s local and right by my house and work. I can also run a course that ends with the 5k that is 5miles uphill w no let off and it’s gentle grade until the last mile then steep grade. I agree with you I probably need to incorporate more longer tempos at marathon ish pace. Lately I have been doing cruise intervals like 2x2x1 or 3x2x1 at Daniels type threshold paces so go me 5:55-6:00 I’m still learning what works for me. I’m consistently getting faster with more mileage and just a tad of intensity while building the base for future cycles so I am in no hurry. I figure the base I am building will make it so I can handle more workouts in future cycles a couple years down the road.

If you were hoping for a 3 hour marathon what would be an ideal predictor then? I was thinking 2:30 at "close to target pace". Sorry, I didn't mean at target pace. If the target was 3 hours it would be 6:52 pace correct? 10% under pace would be 7:37 pace which is 45 seconds a mile slower than target pace. Unless I'm messing up the math? So, for a 2:30 run it would be just under 20 miles. If you went and did a 2:45 run you'd be around 22 miles. These runs would put you 30-45 minutes past the 2 hour mark. Both would be a very good indication of where you will be on race day.

Doesn't Canova have his guys running up to 40k's 24.8 miles at similar percentages in their builds?

Here are some decent predictors. Untapered legs:

1. 13-15 Miles at 6:52 pace

2. Sub 40 for 10k

3. Yasso 800s in 2:55 (I’ll prob get some push back here but they worked for me!)

Thanks everyone, I guess I'm still trying to figure out if I can get a BQ in about 4 weeks.... There's a marathon here kinda local but with Florida weather it could be super hot. I would literally decide to sign up week of the race depending on the weather and how an "indicator run" goes.

I was thinking 10 easy then 10M...

All the calculators have my M at sub 6:20 and I know I'm not in that shape...