Nobody talking about Ross Tucker v Paula radcliffe on twitter.... spat central!

casual obsever wrote:

Always a fun read from 2002:

https://www.iaaf.org/news/news/freeze-my-doping-samples-and-test-them-again

"I was disappointed and saddened by whispers that others believed I was using drugs in some way."

"I have asked the IAAF to conduct random blood and urine tests on me in the build up to Chicago and at the competition itself. I would like these samples to be frozen and tested again in the future as new detection tests become available. This is the only way I can think of to prove that my results are the result of over 10 years of hard work, pain and dedication."

Well, so go ahead and prove it!

WITH her white gloves, support stockings, and a blue hat perched like a tea cosy on her head, Paula Radcliffe seemed to have played into the hands of a local newspaper which suggested she was ''a composite of characters from Monty Python's Flying Circus''.

It may seem eccentric, but it works, and Radcliffe is a MULTI-MILLIONAIRE to prove it.

She has, this year, definitively laid to rest the reputation of gallant British loser.

Her high-profile anti-drugs stance gives her reason to feel paranoid about the prospect of food being spiked, and Ndereba's manager had ignited Radcliffe's wrath with pre-race innuendo. That was silenced as Radcliffe and her husband, Gary, took the initiative.

Nderba was gracious, and conceded that Ms. Paula "Pantani" Radcliffeiani: ''did a great job'', but is unlikely to be high on Radcliffe's Christmas list.

Her manager, Lisa Buster, had complained because the world body (IAAF) had DECIDED NOT TO SUBJECT RADCLIFFE TO A DOPE TEST on the run-in to the race.

The IAAF THOUGHT THEY WERE DOING HER A FAVOR, because she had already been tested so often this year, and deemed it POINTLESS. Though a fierce anti-doping campaigner, Radcliffe has been scurrilously treated by the French media, and spent much of Thursday and Friday demanding that such a test be done on her, to give no further opportunity for unwarranted slurs. She was delighted when doping analysis was eventually arranged before the race.

''I was trying to hold it back in the first half and one (= Mr. Weldon Johnson, ESCORT FOR PAULA) or two US guys trying to get their times was a help,'' said Radcliffe.

The Moroccan-born American Khalid Khannouch was the winner of the men's race.

6 July 2016:

WADA Statement on “Operation Puerto” Athlete Blood Bags:

Following the recent decision by the Madrid Court of Appeal to provide access to the stored Operation Puerto blood and plasma bags of athletes from cycling and other sports, the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) can confirm that, alongside the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI), it is now in possession of samples of the blood and plasma bags; and that, the samples are stored in a WADA-accredited laboratory outside of Spain.

WADA and the UCI will continue their joint investigation into Operation Puerto, and will consider all possible legal options.

Operation Puerto is a Spanish Police investigation into a doping ring led by Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes. In 2006, 211 blood and plasma bags were seized from the offices of Dr. Fuentes who was then handed a one-year suspended sentence for endangering public health. The investigation also resulted in anti-doping rule violations for five cyclists; and, led to suspicion of numerous as yet unnamed athletes from other sports that had been treated by Dr. Fuentes. For years, WADA asked Spanish authorities to provide the Agency and partner anti-doping organisations with access to the blood and plasma bags so that any anti-doping rule violations could be pursued. In April 2013, the Criminal Court of Madrid ordered the destruction of the blood and plasma bags -- a decision that WADA appealed in May 2013.

WADA will make no further comment at this time.

It is just a Coincidental Synchronicity™.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

In this context, it is interesting to recall what you cited from Paula's book:

That is actually in line with Canova's observation that athletes used to altitude don't see a significant change in Hb concentration at altitude (but rather its oxygen "affinity" - that of course being the wrong explanation).

Or EPO. Naaaah!!! It couldn't be!

Ha, so she says that she is constantly at altitude either via a tent or New Mexico/St Moritz/ S. France/Kenya which explains her Hct stability. Yet her OFF Scores are all over the show. Paula needs to go into politics, she'll have plenty of company there.

Here are some excellent examples of the effect of erythropoietin (EPO) use:

1 37′ 35″ Marco Pantani 1997 Italy

2* 37′ 36″ Lance Armstrong 2004 United States

3 38′ 00″ Marco Pantani 1994 Italy

4 38′ 01″ Lance Armstrong 2001 United States

5 38′ 04″ Marco Pantani 1995 Italy

6 38′ 23″ Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany

7 38′ 34″ Floyd Landis 2006 United States

8 38′ 35″ Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany

9* 38′ 37″ Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany

10 39′ 02″ Richard Virenque 1997 France

11 39′ 06″ Iban Mayo 2003 Spain

12* 39′ 17″ Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany

13* 39′ 21″ Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal

14 39′ 22″ Nairo Quintana 2015 Colombia

15 39′ 28″ Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain

16 39′ 28″ Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland

17 39′ 30″ Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark

18 39′ 31″ Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain

19 39′ 44″ Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy

20 39′ 45″ Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain

21 39′ 50″ Nairo Quintana 2013 Colombia

22 40′ 00″ Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany

23 40′ 46″ Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg

24 40′ 51″ Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan

25 41′ 18″ Lance Armstrong 2003 United States

26 41′ 21″ Samuel Sánchez 2011 Spain

27 41′ 30″ Alberto Contador 2011 Spain

It’s the riders who have record the 35 fastest ascents of Alpe d’Huez in the history of the Tour de France, based on the ascent being 14.454 for each rider.

Of the 35 times, 24 were recorded by men we now know were drugs cheats, or who have been implicated in doping.

In 1999, the Italian newspaper la Repubblica published information that linked Marco Pantani to an investigation on the use of performance-enhancing substances in Italian sports. According to the information released by the newspaper, Francesco Conconi administered EPO to Italian athletes from 1993 to 1998, including Pantani and other cyclists of Carrera. It was revealed that Pantani's name appeared on a file marked "Dblab", seized from Conconi's Biomedical Research Institute at Ferrara.

In 2006, two years after his death, Pantani was linked to the OPERATION PUERTO doping case. According to documentation released by Spanish radio network Cadena SER, Pantani was allegedly given the code name "PTNI" by Eufemiano FUENTES, with a detailed program in 2003, his last season, including EPO, anabolic steroids, growth hormone, insulin, levothyroxine (T4), IGF-1, hormones used to treat menopause. Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera indicated that he was administered over 40,000 units of EPO, seven doses of growth hormone, thirty doses of anabolic steroids and four doses of hormones used to treat menopause. Mr. Marco Pantani died in a hotel room in 2004 from an episode of acute cocaine intoxication.

Purdy tables all-time performances by equivalent times:

1) Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests) GBR = 3000m 7:59.8, 5000m 13:52, 10000m 29:03, Marathon 2:15:25

2) Almaz Ayana (managed by Jos Hermens) ETH = 3000m 8:04.0, 5000m 13:59, 10000m 29:17

3) Wang Junxia CHINA (1993) = 8:06.11, 14:03, 29:25

4) Wang Junxia CHINA (1993) = 8:07.1, 14:05, 29:31

5) Vivian Cheruyiot KENYA = 8:07.5, 14:06, 29:32

6) Tirunesh Dibaba (at Sabadell, Spain EPO hotel) ETH =8:07.9, 14:11, 29:42

7) Meseret Defar (on leaked Atypical ABP list) = 8:11.8, 14:12.8, 29:47

8) Qu Yunxia CHINA (1993)= 8:12, 14:13, 29:47

9) Wang Junxia CHINA (1993) = 8:12, 14:13, 29:47

10) Qu Yunxia CHINA (1993) = 8:12, 14:13, 29:47

11) Almaz Ayana (managed by Jos Hermens) ETH = 8:12.8, 14:14, 29:50

12) Genzebe Dibaba (also at Sabadell, Spain EPO hotel) = 8:13.1, 14:15, 29:52

13) Almaz Ayana (managed by Jos Hermens) ETH =8:13.6, 14:16, 29:54

14) Meseret Defar (on leaked Atypical ABP list) ETH= 8:13.8, 14:16, 29:54

15) Tirunesh Dibaba (at Sabadell, Spain EPO hotel) ETH = 8:13.8, 14:16, 29:54

16) Elvan Abeylegesse (former Ethiopian running for Turkey, banned for DOPING) = 8:14.3, 14:17, 29:56

It is just a coincidence.

Top 11 all-time marathon times for women:

1 2:15:25 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests, 21.88% increase in Hb in 2 days in 2003, 16.2 g/dL Hb level in 2012)

2 2:17:01 Mary Keitany (on leaked Fancy Bears Atypical ABP suspicious blood test result list)

3 2:17:18 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood test results)

4 2:17:42 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood test results)

5 2:17:56 Tirunesh Dibaba (bad luck, she was at the Sabadell Spain hotel with Genzebe and Jama during EPO raid)

6 2:18:20 Liliya Shobukhova (banned for doping with EPO, adverse ABP)

7 2:18:31 Tirunesh Dibaba (bad luck she was at the EPO raid in Sabadell)

8 2:18:37 Mary Keitany (Atypical ABP blood test result on Fancy Bears leaked list)

9 2:18:47 Catherine N'dereba....set in 2001. No ABP at the time.

10 2:18:56 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests)

11 2:18:57a Rita Jeptoo (banned for doping with EPO)

The 2016 Olympic Marathon gold medalist Jemima Sumgong (and former training partner of Rita Jeptoo) has also been banned for doping with EPO.

Michael Ashenden said ‘The Independent Commission has identified corruption and bribery practices at the highest levels of international athletics, currently under investigation by Interpol.

‘The Independent Commission said that the IAAF was inexplicably lax in following up suspicious blood profiles. I witnessed symptoms of that disgraceful behaviour when I inspected a database drenched with suspect blood profiles. And I made comment accordingly.’

‘The IAAF pleads that it could not have done more. But the blood values were so extreme, over such an extended period, that they should have tried to do something — anything.

‘The IAAF were legally timid when they should have been morally strong.’

Parisotto went on to reveal that the findings he was asked to analyse from a huge database of IAAF blood test results was, in his words, ‘jaw-dropping data [that] drove me — in fact compelled me — to review the database’.

He added: ‘As a health professional, the data revealed to me that so many athletes were at real risk of suffering heart attacks, strokes and even death.

http://features.thesundaytimes.co.uk/web/public/2015/the-doping-scandal/index.html#/

Aug. 9 2015:

The London Marathon was won seven times in 12 years by athletes who have recorded blood scores that indicate doping.

According to data leaked to the Sunday Times, one in four winners of the the big six global marathons - London, Boston, Chicago, New York, Berlin and Tokyo - have recorded suspicious blood scores.

The newspaper says they "should have faced censure or at least been investigated over evidence of potential blood doping within their test results." The athletes whose blood experts deemed suspicious collectively won more than £4 MILLION in prize money from marathons including Chicago, London, New York and Boston.

From the London Marathon, the legitimacy of seven winners, six runners-up and seven third places has been called into question.

Russian runner Liliya Shobukhova, who won the marathon in 2010 and was runner-up in 2011, was stripped of her title this year and had her results since 2009 annulled. It is claimed that she recorded "extreme blood scores" for nine years before the authorities took action against her last year — and that marathon organisers were not told about the results.

The blood test data - 12,000 results from 5,000 athletes - was held by International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) and leaked by a whistle-blower.

After reviewing the data, scientists Robin Parisotto and Michael Ashenden claimed a THIRD (33.333%) of the MEDALS from endurance events at the Olympics and World Championships were won by athletes with abnormal or suspicious blood tests. Parisotto said he had never seen such a set of blood values.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/doping-crisis-london-marathon-winners-called-into-question-10447170.html

For more reading on the mechanism of action:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3874847/

Liliya Shobukhova was the fastest Russian BANNED for DOPING (ABP violation).

Liliya did well at marathons:

Winner of 2009 Chicago marathon

Winner of 2010 London marathon

Winner of 2010 Chicago marathon

2nd place at 2011 London marathon (Mary Keitany 1st)

Winner of 2011 Chicago marathon in 2:18:20

Winner of $500,000 World Marathon Majors BONUS JACKPOT MONEY FOR 2009-2010.

Rita Jeptoo was the fastest Kenyan born, living, and training at altitude who was BANNED for DOPING (EPO positive in OOC test).

Rita also did well at marathons. She was managed by Federico Rosa:

Winner of 2006 Boston marathon

2nd place at 2012 Chicago marathon (Rita Jeptoo's training partner was Priscah Jeptoo. Priscah Jeptoo also won the 2012 Olympic marathon silver medal, and also won the 2013 London marathon...and the 2013 NYC marathon...and also ran a 1:05:45 half-marathon in 2013 when she absolutely DESTROYED Tirunesh Dibaba and Meseret Defar in the race.)

Winner of 2013 Boston marathon

Winner of 2013 Chicago marathon

Winner of 2014 Boston marathon in 2:18:57

Winner of 2014 Chicago marathon...but no $500,000 WMM BONUS JACKPOT MONEY FOR RITA...because of that darn EPO positive doping test and ban. Oh well. Sorry about that Rita.

Jemima Sumgong was the training partner of Rita Jeptoo. She was also managed by Federico and Gabriele Rosa. Jemima Sumgong was also BANNED for DOPING (EPO positive in OOC test).

Jemima also did well at marathons:

2nd place at the 2012 Boston marathon (had a little problem with a 2 year ban for prednisolone, cleared on appeal)

Winner of 2013 Rotterdam marathon

2nd place at 2013 Chicago marathon (training partner and doper Rita Jeptoo was the winner)

4th place at 2014 Boston marathon (training partner and doper Rita Jeptoo was the winner)

2nd place at 2014 NYC marathon (Mary Keitany 1st)

Winner of 2016 London marathon

Winner of 2016 Olympic marathon GOLD MEDAL

The fastest female from CHINA banned for DOPING was Sun Yinjie (2:19:39 set in 2003).

Ms. Paula "Pantani" Radcliffe is faster at the marathon than ALL of the FASTEST WOMEN BANNED FOR DOPING from RUSSIA and CHINA...and ALL OTHER COUNTRIES ON THIS PLANET...in the entire history of human females.

Ms. Paula "Pantani" Radcliffe is faster at the marathon than ALL of the FASTEST WOMEN born, living, and training at high altitude from KENYA AND ETHIOPIA of ALL TIME...including ALL OF THE FASTEST WOMEN BANNED FOR DOPING from KENYA AND ETHIOPIA.

...Ms. Paula "Pantani" Radcliffe is faster than all of them...

...Wait a second...

That sounds exactly like... LANCE ARMSTRONG.

It is just a Coincidental Synchronicity™.

That doesn't mean other innocent athletes won't be harmed. International sports federations, NADOs, all NGOs, have to take steps to limit the visibility of this private data. What is good for the sports federation, is bad for everyone else. I got it right on the first try.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I wonder why you wonder, because the IAAF explained in great detail why they don't. Two main reasons are to protect the athletes:

- Wrong interpretations can irreversibly damage reputations

And yet, some athletes have published data and nothing came from it.

rekrunner wrote:

- Blood values are in fact medical data, something which many countries consider private

Yet, international sports federations, NADOs, all NGOs, require athletes to share their health data, maintain and manage "private" health data across international borders. What's good for the sports federation is bad for everyone else?

Try again.

Even if you knew all these things, altitude remains a plausible explanation, for a value that produced an off-score below a population threshold of suspicion for altitude, for an athlete that spent 4 weeks at 2400m, in the off-season. Is it weird? Or is it routine? Do first experts "draw conclusions"?

It's time for a SPANISH Inquisition:

For example:

https://imgur.com/a/vnyIC#XNFo4IL

It turned out that Geoffrey Mutai (2:03:02 marathon PR, 2:05 at NYC,) had 2 blood test results that were "suspicious" or "likely doping" on the leaked Fancy Bears Atypical ABP list. He showed a high reticulocyte% score (which is a sign of EPO use) on two blood tests and there is a question about follow-up testing for erythropoiesis stimulating agents (ESAs).

Geoffrey Mutai's training partner was Dennis Kimetto.

It turns out that Dennis is the only human with a faster marathon time PR than Geoffrey Mutai...because Dennis Kimetto holds the World Record in the marathon for all male humans in the entire history of this planet.

1 2:02:57 Dennis Kimetto (managed by Gerard van de Veen of THE NETHERLANDS) KEN

2 2:03:02a Geoffrey Mutai (managed by Gerard van de Veen of THE NETHERLANDS KEN

3 2:03:03 Kenenisa Bekele (managed by Jos Hermens of THE NETHERLANDS) ETH

4 2:03:05 Eliud Kipchoge (managed by Jos Hermens of THE NETHERLANDS) KEN

5 2:03:06a Moses Mosop (managed by Jos Hermens of THE NETHERLANDS) KEN

6 2:03:13 Emmanuel Mutai (managed by Michel Boeting of THE NETHERLANDS) KEN

6 2:03:13 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich (managed by Gerard van de Veen of THE NETHERLANDS) KEN

8 2:03:23 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich (managed by Gerard van de Even of THE NETHERLANDS) KEN

9 2:03:32 Eliud Kipchoge (managed by Jos Hermens of THE NETHERLANDS) KEN

One of van de Veen's most gifted young athletes is Kenyan Violah Jepchumba - a road racer who demolished a talented field in last spring's Prague Half Marathon by splitting the opening 10 kilometers in a then-world leading 30:29 on her way to victory in a world-leading 1:05:51.

Currently, the Dutch manager has several marquee thoroughbreds in his stable that include two-time defending Prague half marathon champion Daniel Wanjiru, former marathon world record holder Wilson Kipsang; and current marathon world record holder Dennis Kimetto.

..."Then we consult with our doctor in Holland to see if it is a medication we know. After that, if we can, we say OK, it is good. That's the way we are working with this issue." The Dutch manager knows complete supervision over an athlete is not possible - a reality that is nonetheless frustrating. "The problem is that you cannot control an athlete 24 hours a day. You cannot see what they are doing, if they are going to a doctor, asking for something. That's not possible. How can you control that? The only thing you can do is lead your athlete to do right. When you use that approach - knowing that you lack control - your task is complete. That's the only thing you can do."

Acknowledging that the future of international road racing is difficult to predict with precision, Gerard van de Veen nonetheless cites continued financial support as a critical ingredient for its future success. "I think [that how road racing will look in 3-5 years] is difficult to predict. Everything depends upon MONEY," he predicts. "The better the MONEY, the better the races, the better the participants."

http://www.runblogrun.com/2016/10/gerard-van-de-veen-cultivating-road-talent-dutch-manager-handles-the-greats.html

Nov. 21 2006:

Jos Hermens said... "But it's crazy to say I'm involved in a doping network. If someone commits murder that does not mean I'm a murderer." Dr. Peraita, according to Spanish media reports, shares or shared an office in Madrid with Jose Merino Batres, one of the sports doctors under investigation in the Spanish OPERATION PUERTO cycling doping scandal.

The OPERATION PUERTO scandal, one of the worst to engulf cycling, led to top stars like Jan Ullrich and Ivan Basso being banned from this year's Tour de France.

Hermens's current clients include Olympic 10,000 champion Kenenisa Bekele as well as Gebreslassie. Hermens said he recommended Peraita to the three German athletes because he believed some of the Spanish doctor's methods, which included homeopathy, were revolutionary. "I was maybe a little DUMB," Hermens said. "I should have asked more questions about what Peraita exactly does."

Neither Schumann or Breuer faces a criminal investigation at the moment - the German athletics federation has given the two runners seven days to explain some of the "medical" breaches reportedly shown in the Springstein court documents. Springstein was convicted in March for giving a banned substance to minors he was coaching. Hermens was also the manager of Breuer and Katrin Krabbe when they tested positive for the banned substance clenbuterol in'92. Both Breuer and Krabbe, who won 100 and 200 golds at the'91 world championships, were coached by Springstein at the time.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/historic/32010549.html

March 7, 2016:

Jos Hermens said...“I don’t even know what the Swedish article says at this time, but I can tell you after 40 years of coaching with no problems, why would he start doping athletes now at the age of 67,” Hermens added regarding a Swedish news report of Dr. Pieter Vergouwen’s supposed questionable involvement with Swedish-Ethiopian runner WC 1500m gold medalist Abeba Aregawi.

Apparently world record holder in the 1500m, Genzebe Dibaba’s coach, Jama Aden may be under investigation.

Last year two of his athletes were suspended including Laila Traby of France, who is a 10,000m runner. French police found EPO in her apartment, while Hamza Driouch was suspended for Athlete Biological Passport anomalies, Driouch competed for Qatar.

Dibaba currently holds the world record in the 1500m distance, which she set in 2015 at 3:50.07 in Monaco. In that race she finally broke Chinese athlete Qu Yunxia’s record of 3:50.46 that was set in 1993 under a cloud of suspicion, that has darkened the sport’s image ever since.

Recently a letter from team-mate Wang Junxia to a Chinese journalist, that went unpublished for two decades surfaced alleging that her coach Ma Junren had forced his athletes known as “Ma’s Army” to dope. The performances by the Chinese athletes at the time have been under great suspicion as being enhanced by PEDs. Junren had attempted to assemble a new training group but several of his runners that were slated to compete during the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games tested positive for EPO and were subsequently dropped from the team.

“You can see why these athletes dope. Not that I am saying that it is okay or anything like that, as I am not, but the very best athletes do not need to dope. It is the male 2:10 marathon runners who want to run 2:05 and the women who run 2:30 who want to run 2:22 and earn $30,000 prize money. That to them is a lot of money and when they win $30,000 in prize money it doesn’t matter so much to them that they are suspended for four years,” said Hermens of the Ethiopians and Kenyans who have been suspended recently.

“These random isolated positive drug tests in Ethiopia and Kenya have nothing to do with management, it is just random pharmacists or doctors and sometimes doctors who are not fully certified offering drugs to athletes."

"It’s just some random lunatic doctors,” added Hermens.

http://athleticsillustrated.com/editorial/jos-hermens-i-have-never-been-involved-or-assisted-any-athlete-at-anytime-to-dope/

It is just a Coincidental Synchronicity™.

109.35 is only just under the 110 'population threshold of suspicion for altitude', and the 16.2 Hb value in itself would have triggered the warning bells. And that's regardless of the fact (as you know) that the ABP is about comparing values within an individual athlete's profile, not just absolute values.

I don't agree actually - I think it is disconcerting that (apparently) one expert can look at the data and conclude 'likely doping' and another can look at exactly the same data and come to a different conclusion. Doesn't fill me with confidence in the system.

By the way, what are your thoughts on Paula saying one thing about when she was tested in Helsinki in her autobiography and another in a more recent interview? (see my previous post). I know that in itself it's not proof of anything, but if you can tell a fib about one thing.....

Dr.SkyRunnerShiva.at.12633ft.com wrote:

Always a fun read from 2002:

https://www.iaaf.org/news/news/freeze-my-doping-samples-and-test-them-again

"I was disappointed and saddened by whispers that others believed I was using drugs in some way."

.

She better watch this one, scientists may in 30+ years time be more sophisticated than she expects them to be. A single cell maybe enough to reveal a career of doping.

Dr.Sky.Runner.Shiva.at.12633ft.com wrote:

Here are some excellent examples of the effect of erythropoietin (EPO) use:

.

Or

1 7:20.67 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Rieti 01.09.1996

2 7:23.09 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Bruxelles 03.09.1999

3 7:25.02 Ali Saïdi-Sief ALG 15.03.78 1 Monaco 18.08.2000

4 7:25.09 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Bruxelles 28.08.1998

5 7:25.11 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Monaco 02.08.1994

6 7:25.16 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Monaco 10.08.1996

7 7:25.54 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Monaco 08.08.1998

8 7:25.79 Kenenisa Bekele ETH 13.06.82 1 Stockholm 07.08.2007

9 7:25.87 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Bruxelles 23.08.1996

10 7:26.02 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Bruxelles 22.08.1997

11 7:26.03 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Helsinki 10.06.1999

12 7:26.62 Mohammed Mourhit BEL 10.10.70 2 Monaco 18.08.2000

Hmmm, 3,000m the event widely considered the best indicator of maximal uptake (VO2MAX, but said with a Lydiard accent) and the event most likely benefit from EPO use. Yet only one of these times was done after 2000, by an Ethiopian. So many fast times between 1994 and 2000. Interestingly, fast 3,000m times seem to have gone the way of the Dodo. I hope that our good friend Gary can explain this one? ? again I'm all ears ?

Obviously all 3000 m experts are now running the marathon, for there is more money, and it's both long distance.

Tee hee.

Most here will readily admit that records are the more suspicious, the older and the more outstanding they are. But not Gary... but then he is just trolling to keep P.R. in the (revealing) spotlight. For example, yesterday's series of damning posts was again triggered by his prodding. Awesome.

While you may find it "disconcerting", what is your basis? Do you have a sense of how many samples are flagged by a first expert, only to be dismissed by a larger panel, after a more detailed review? I don't. I can only speculate how anti-doping has evolved, but I guess by 2012, they've added more checks, more scores, and more sophisticated algorithms to widen what gets flagged as suspicious. Maybe the off-score was fine, but other scores, or simply the 16.2 Hb value was something the first expert thought required a more detailed review. We saw something similar with Evan Jager being told that it was a software check which got his name on the Fancy Bears list. My thoughts are it doesn't matter what Paula says in interviews, since you can draw the same conclusions without any testimony or interviews. But I do find that this idea that you can catch her in some kind of lie, to justify whatever else you can imagine is a little bit too easy.

DHT123 wrote:

109.35 is only just under the 110 'population threshold of suspicion for altitude', and the 16.2 Hb value in itself would have triggered the warning bells. And that's regardless of the fact (as you know) that the ABP is about comparing values within an individual athlete's profile, not just absolute values.

I don't agree actually - I think it is disconcerting that (apparently) one expert can look at the data and conclude 'likely doping' and another can look at exactly the same data and come to a different conclusion. Doesn't fill me with confidence in the system.

By the way, what are your thoughts on Paula saying one thing about when she was tested in Helsinki in her autobiography and another in a more recent interview? (see my previous post). I know that in itself it's not proof of anything, but if you can tell a fib about one thing.....

Paula "mis remembering" is her biggest issue. She want to the doping advocate , but keeps changing the narrative. First she was training here, then there, wants full transparency , then non-transparency , then teaming with Jo Pavey, then Pavey provides all her data, then she doesn't want to campaign anti drug with Pavey. Poor Seb Coe has to keep changing the IAAF stance every time Radcliffe changes her mind.

This "biggest issue" cannot change fundamental facts. Nothing she (or anyone) says can make her pre-2009 points reliable for comparison, nor make altitude non-plausible in 2012. The IAAF has not changed its stance since Dec. 2014.

East vs West wrote:

Paula "mis remembering" is her biggest issue. She want to the doping advocate , but keeps changing the narrative. First she was training here, then there, wants full transparency , then non-transparency , then teaming with Jo Pavey, then Pavey provides all her data, then she doesn't want to campaign anti drug with Pavey. Poor Seb Coe has to keep changing the IAAF stance every time Radcliffe changes her mind.

casual obsever wrote:

Obviously all 3000 m experts are now running the marathon, for there is more money, and it's both long distance.

Tee hee.

Most here will readily admit that records are the more suspicious, the older and the more outstanding they are. But not Gary... but then he is just trolling to keep P.R. in the (revealing) spotlight. For example, yesterday's series of damning posts was again triggered by his prodding. Awesome.

+1

Gary's reputation as a troll precedes him.

East vs West wrote:

Paula "mis remembering" is her biggest issue.

Yes. And it is a big problem for the IAAF, and its credibility (if there were any left), as the IAAF took her words as facts in 2003 and 2005 and in 2012...

casual obsever wrote:

Obviously all 3000 m experts are now running the marathon, for there is more money, and it's both long distance.

Tee hee.

Yes, and far less in competition testing and if you pump out an adverse reading, just blame dehydration.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Yes, and far less in competition testing and if you pump out an adverse reading, just blame dehydration.

or kidney failure ....

va va Froome wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Yes, and far less in competition testing and if you pump out an adverse reading, just blame dehydration.

or kidney failure ....

Froome is using the Aries Merritt excuse.

Who here would bet your literal life that Paula used EPO or at least some kind of banned drug during her active career, and that the 2:15:25 is a dirty record?

I would bet my life against a modest reward for being correct -- as low as $25K, against a penalty of the gas chamber if I could be proven wrong. And I am neither desperate for money nor depressed enough to risk dying for no good reason.