training questions for the Marathon

Also I would appreciate your advice for base building over the next 2.5 weeks until my 18 week training program begins. I have been alternating 10 and 13 mile Sunday runs over the past 5 weeks increasing, with the most recent 10 miler averaging 7:58 pace, with the last 3 miles in 735 pace and feeling good)

For a first marathon, go conservative as there is a lot that can go wrong. I usually have a 2 tier goal with a 'what I'm sure I can run' and a 'I might be able to run' goal. For you maybe a 3:30 and a 3:20?

Be sure to continue adding some marathon pace into your longer runs. Get your body prepared to run your goal pace, not just your goal distance.

I don't think you can get a good answer yet. You'll be a totally different runner come October if you lose the weight you intend to lose and train with quality days consistently.

The good news is that there is no need to establish a goal pace today. Pick a handful of races of various distances between now and then and use hose to estimate your fitness and establish a goal time.

run some kind of race and/or time trial to get an idea of your current fitness.

a 5k, 10, or 15k race will tell you a lot

you have to train to your current limits, not the ones you hope to attain... you can adjust the paces as you improve

Thanks for the tips. Unfortunately there are no races coming up in Kosovo, so I will knock out a five or ten K time trial in the next two weeks before the 18 weeks training calendar begins to see where I am at. In the mean time I will keep doing my weekly long runs in the 10-13 mile range at or just under 8 min pace with some 730 miles thrown in their for good measure. I threw in five 20 second strider a today in my my daily 5.5 mile run to let my body know that more intensity is coming! I want avoid getting hurt, so I may continue to rise 5 days a week for now plus a cross training day. We will see how it goes, but I am not sure if I want to go over 50 miles week as I have never done more than 40-I know I won't get to my full potential without more miles, but I would also like to not get hurt and save some time for the baby and work. Luckily I live a 7 minus walk from the office, so I at least i don't waste time commuting and can do 40-60 minutes of running in the morning, maybe a bit more if I need to on my second longest run as it lengthens. I look forward to this process!

The Higdon plan should be fine for you. The thing I want to point out, though, is that marathon pace is only demonstrated once you race the actual marathon. And the way training works you should be at your fittest a few months from now when you race the marathon. This means that "marathon pace" might be quite difficult for you throughout your training and only really possible at the appropriate level of effort at the culmination of your training cycle. Let your level of effort determine a reasonably fast aerobic pace during these weeks of training or else trying to do any runs near marathon pace will actually result in something closer to a threshold run which is an effort level impossible to sustain for 26.2 miles.

One more question, more on the length of the distance run. All the HH programs max out at 20 mile for the distance run-the beginner one does the distance once, the advanced does it 3 times. I am sure that this has been debated before here, but 20 seems short, even for a first time marathon runner. HH's philosophy is that the distance run is much slower than race pace and you need to train your body to the period of time of the marathon, not the distance. I have already doing 10-13 mile runs for the past five Sundays and plan to keep this up for the next two weeks before the plan offically starts. The HH plan starts at only 10 miles for the distance run-thus, could I just do two extra miles for each distance run (starting with 12, ending with 22)? Thoughts?

I'd really stress the losing weight part. At 5'7 and trying to run a marathon, you really should be like 135, but 150 is definitely too much. I would shoot for 140-145 if you can (big if, I know it may be difficult or impossible depending on body type). Weight makes a huge difference and will help you achieve your goal a lot easier.

Regarding long runs, 3 hour long runs are the max I would do. That's probably like 20-21 miles for you. No need to go longer.

I hear you on the weight loss-135 might be a bridge too far in the next four or so months-It's amazing I was the same height my senior year in HS and 120bs! Since puberty have always had unusually large calves and thighs- maybe it's genetic and maybe it's because i grew up walking around hilly woods. My upper body also filled out since high school from weight lifting in college and manual labor-not saying there ins t some fat to get off, but but loosing that kind of weight would also have to include muscle too. My construction worker grandfather was built the same way- he has a bit of a belly that he made us punch to prove it was hard as rock and he was a strong dude into his 80s. Anyway, he didn't run a marathons, but that could have been the 2-3 packs a day! We will see where I am at as far as pace and weight in a few months which will determine the distance of 3 hours.

As an update, running and weight loss coming together. After a brutal and disssapointing HM 3 weeks ago, I was 166. I did my weekly weigh in this morning and am down to 159.5. So averaging about 2 pounds off a week. It's mostly due to portion control. I don't eat junk food anyway, but we eat vast majority of meals at home, but I admit that I traditionally like to eat seconds if we cookeded a good meal! Cutting the seconds out and reducing the size of the first plate seems to be what I needed to open up a decent calorie defecit. I also walk a lot, but that's hasn't really changed. Hoping it helps my running and sets me up to be at a good weight for when i turn 40 next year.

Down to 155 and feeling good. My 32 inch belt has been rendered useless. While most of the weight has come off the belly, I notice my arms are slightly less bulk/more cut. As I mentioned in another post, I have been averaging 35 miles/week over the past 6 weeks+ and this week I will do about 40. The HH marathon program I am using will have me max out in the 55-60 mile range in a few months with a gradual progression to that. Based on my current fitness and time commitments with work and family, that range is the best I will be able to muster and I am ok with that! All my running these past few months has been in the 720-810 range on quite hill terrain. I look forward to seeing where I am at in some of the tempo runs which I will do on flatter/gently rolling terrain.

martalus wrote:

Also I would appreciate your advice for base building over the next 2.5 weeks until my 18 week training program begins. I have been alternating 10 and 13 mile Sunday runs over the past 5 weeks increasing, with the most recent 10 miler averaging 7:58 pace, with the last 3 miles in 735 pace and feeling good)

Listen very carefully, it's the last time I will offer this invaluable advice:

Slow down, think 8:30-8:45 pace while you build your mileage up (and beyond).

Build mileage up with day to day consistency as the priority, the long run is the least important at this time, keep it below 30% (25% would be better) of weekly mileage.

You don't need to run longer than 18 miles to reach your goal, so don't fret about 20 as the max.

Thanks for the advice. I am definitely focusing on day to day consistency. For years, I would run only 4 days a week-roughly 2 days run, one day off. Now I am able to go three days on, one day off, which gives 5-6 runs/week. I feel like I am recovering faster than I used to. So for example, this week I did 14 hilly miles on Sunday at 8:05 pace (yes, a bit long, I get it), Monday some walking/core strength, Tuesday 5.3 miles @7:48 pace, Wed 6 miles 7:49 pace, Today, 6 miles, 759 pace. Tomorrow I will do either 3 easy miles or jog to the gym and do some elliptical and core), then Saturday 10 or so miles. That gives just over 40 miles. Last week was 36 miles, similar make up, week before was 35, etc. Next week will drop back to 35 as per week 1 of the HH plan, but will have one day of hill repeats in the mix. I hear the slow down on the long run, but damn, 830-845 seems really slow as even 8 min mile feels slow and effortless.

I can provide a point of reference. Before this year I had never run more than 40mpw. I just ran Grandma's Marathon in Minnesota last week. It was a little hotter than ideal conditions and humid ('yellow flag' weather) and I ran a 3:09. A little slower than I had hoped if the weather was perfect, but in the ballpark of times you are considering I think.

My average mileage in March, April and May was in the low 50s per week. My average pace for all runs was about 8:20 pace. This was the Hanson's plan, so it included one "marathon pace" run at 6:52 for up to 10 miles and one run at 6:42 pace split into intervals totaling 6 miles at pace each week. That means my easy runs that helped me get up to the higher volumes without hurting myself and fill out the rest of my mileage volume were traditionally slower than 8:30 pace. Probably most of the time in the 8:30-9:00 minute range...while training for a marathon I ran at 7:14 pace. (Since it was Hanson's, I also hadn't run longer than 16 miles since May of 2016...to answer your question about long runs longer than 22 miles)

Heed his advice. The easiest way for a beginner to improve in the marathon is just to get more miles in, and the most efficient way to get more miles in without hurting yourself is to slow down for the majority of those miles. Good luck.

Thanks, that's really good perspective as it sounds like you have a similar training background!

I'm training for the half and I am grateful for your tips! I am slower than everyone on here, but the methodology will work for me.

Even a slow ass like me at 9:30/mi has a shot at getting down to sub-9 (8:56 or so as goal pace) for the half! :)

I ran 18:33 9 years ago but I was only 24 at the time :/

Well, I jammed my foot/ankle two weeks ago coming down some stairs-I took a day off to make sure it wasnt sprained/swollen, but after two weeks of good running, looks like I did aggravate it as upper outside part of foot is a bit swolen (not the ankle) and ankle is a bit unstable on stairs/uneven surfaces. As this is the first 'offficial' week of my 18 week training for the marathon, I figured I would get it checked out by a doctor. They confirmed what was expecting- it is strained (not sprained) and I should take 2 weeks or so off from running to let it heal. Said I could do other cardio if I want, as long as it doesnt aggravate it. So it sucks that I have screwed my marathon training program before it started! But at least I lost 13 + pounds, am down to 153, and added some good miles to my base. I would rather take a week or two off now instead of months or years later....I haven't decided if I will still do the marathon at the end of October or not...such is life!

If you can do other cardio (swimming, elliptical) for the next week or two and it really is 100% better, you are so far out from the race that I'd think you could still make it up. Too early to quit now. My answer would be different if you were like...8 weeks out or less. Heck, I missed running most of a week 5 weeks out and still made it work ok. Maybe not ideal, but not a death blow.

Would have been better if you took the week off two weeks ago when it happened and before the plan started and it got worse, but we can only learn from our mistakes not beat ourselves up about them.

With a decent base 16 weeks is more than enough time for a marathon buildup. I'm just a hobbyjogger (2:42 pr) but I've found 12 weeks is about right for me. It's long enough to get me in marathon shape without burning me out.