Folks, do you know this article and what do you think about it? http://fellrnr.com/wiki/Tempo_Runs
Folks, do you know this article and what do you think about it? http://fellrnr.com/wiki/Tempo_Runs
I have never had the same success with any other form of training that I had by doing nothing but regular tempo runs.
i think the headline of this thread is false. the article points out:
- that a tempo run is probably not the most efficient producer of running fitness (which does not mean that tempo runs are useless)
- that other workouts (e.g. intervals) are likely better (and again this does not mean that tempo runs are useless).
the tempo pace range is wide. a short tempo is really tough and fast, a long tempo is something different.
OP
For every workout , there are some studies that will say they are no good. Any workout that pushes your threshold, improves your times and ability to withstand oxygen debt and shows progress, is part of the improvement process.
The intro tipped it off...the article is some tripe written by a member of the HIIT cult.
1. What is a fellrnr?
2. From the site: "They are too fast to be long, and too slow to be intense. "
Stop right there. Too fast or too slow for length just means you're doing it wrong.
A 20' tempo for me is HARD to hit the pace on alone. It feels like a race. Now if I do it in an actual race, then its not so bad, so thats what I try to do when I can, or at least do it in a group. Hence the term 'tempo-ing a race"
xxx222 wrote:
1. What is a fellrnr?
2. From the site: "They are too fast to be long, and too slow to be intense. "
Stop right there. Too fast or too slow for length just means you're doing it wrong.
A 20' tempo for me is HARD to hit the pace on alone. It feels like a race. Now if I do it in an actual race, then its not so bad, so thats what I try to do when I can, or at least do it in a group. Hence the term 'tempo-ing a race"
I think a "fell" is a British term for a hill or a hilly trail, so I think that's where that guy runs.
There is no perfect mix of ratios of pace/volume work, or even cross training. Different paths can lead to similar results. One need not be a cult follower, but that is what is begged from so many people who are trying to be relevant in disseminating running knowledge for profit and attention.
There is a lifestyle component to training and yes, individual response or injury susceptibility to different work types. Don't look for a guru in all these experts. Take the available info and test it against yourself. What makes you as fast as you can be while still in a good state of well being is what is right.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I had recent races of 8k at 5:52 pace and a half at 6:19 pace, but holding a 6:10 tempo for 3 miles feels like all out effort
xxx222 wrote:
1. What is a fellrnr?
2. From the site: "They are too fast to be long, and too slow to be intense. "
Stop right there. Too fast or too slow for length just means you're doing it wrong.
A 20' tempo for me is HARD to hit the pace on alone. It feels like a race. Now if I do it in an actual race, then its not so bad, so thats what I try to do when I can, or at least do it in a group. Hence the term 'tempo-ing a race"
One big advantage of a tempo run is that it's a relatively easy recovery as compared to many higher intensity training workouts. So while the author said that there are other forms of training that are just as good as Tempo runs to improve performance, he didn't mention that a runner could easily run 2-3 tempos per week with a smaller injury risk than 2-3 hard interval sessions.
Not useless, just a piece of the puzzle.
Thanks to that one article, I take everything the author says with a grain of salt. It's true that tempo runs are just one form of training, but they're the one that I ignored for too long and had the biggest payoff when I added it to my training. I firmly believe that all paces are useful for training, but tempo runs of various kinds fill in a huge gap between intervals and easy runs, and the psychological benefits of learning to hold a pace for 20+ minutes without going over the edge are huge. I'd call them the most effective form of training, not the least effective.
Jimmy21 wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I had recent races of
8k at 5:52 pace and a half at 6:19 pace, but holding a 6:10 tempo for 3 miles feels like all out effort
xxx222 wrote:1. What is a fellrnr?
2. From the site: "They are too fast to be long, and too slow to be intense. "
Stop right there. Too fast or too slow for length just means you're doing it wrong.
A 20' tempo for me is HARD to hit the pace on alone. It feels like a race. Now if I do it in an actual race, then its not so bad, so thats what I try to do when I can, or at least do it in a group. Hence the term 'tempo-ing a race"
You saying you ran 8k..a 5mile at 5:52 per mile? But to run a 3 mile at 6:10 seems like all out? You goin even on those 6:10's...I mean dead on in the first 100 meters thru to the 3 mile mark?
hitanmisss wrote:
Jimmy21 wrote:I'm glad I'm not the only one. I had recent races of
8k at 5:52 pace and a half at 6:19 pace, but holding a 6:10 tempo for 3 miles feels like all out effort
You saying you ran 8k..a 5mile at 5:52 per mile? But to run a 3 mile at 6:10 seems like all out? You goin even on those 6:10's...I mean dead on in the first 100 meters thru to the 3 mile mark?
Race environment is important. I run an 8k at 5:07 pace, and 5:30 pace for a flat 20 minute tempo is really damn hard.
Articles like these are why we shouldn't pay much attention to exercise physiology yet.
xxx222 wrote:
1. What is a fellrnr?
It is his abbreviation for Fell Runner, the word "Fell" is explained here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FellAnd Fell races are certainly not like trail races, speaking as someone who has done hundreds of both.
This article is a perfect example of how it's possible to create fake ideas, looking at some part of training only. I found a lot of bullshits in this article : this is not science, and clearly all the "studies" don't have any connection with the reality.
They speak about "elite athletes". In this case, THERE IS NO ELITE ATHLETE WHO DOESN'T USE TEMPO RUNS AS FUNDAMENTAL BASE FOR HIS SPECIFIC TRAINING.
One of the problems is the interpretation of the words "Tempo Run". Tempo runs, practically, are not connected with the level of threshold of with VO2 max, but are connected with ths SPECIFITY of the event.
In other words, for a marathon runner of 2:06:30 (3:00 per km), running 25 km at the same pace can be considered a SPECIFIC TEMPO RUN, while for a specialist able running 1:44 in 800m and coming from 400m, the ability to run 3 km at VO2 max is a TEMPO RUN.
When we speak about Tempo Runs (TR), we need to look at a "stair" where all the stairs, represented by specific paces, are very close one another, and all the stairs must be used.
TR is not something connected with physiology, but with the "mathematic" of the speed of the race. In this case, we can call TR some long distance faster than Marathon Pace (we can run this around the speed of the LT) when we speak about Marathon, something about 8 - 15 km when we speak about 10,000m (in this case, for example, 8 km at 95% - 98% of the speed of the race, or 15 km at 90%-92%), something about 4 - 8 km when we speak about 5,000m (in this case, 4 km at 95% - 98% of the speed of the race, and 8 km at 90%-92%).
We can consider the distance LONGER than the event we want to prepare as a SPECIFIC TEMPO RUN, for example a race of 10000m for runners of 5000m.
All the studies carried out with athletes of medium level have the property to be "conservative" depending on the personal and individual characteristics the athlete has, and look at an intensity remaining inside the current ability of the athlete. In this case, NEVER we can have improvement in the performance, and we have a type of training for health, not for results.
The final goal, if athletes want some result, for every distance, is to be able TO EXTEND THE ABILITY TO LAST LONGER AT A SPEED ALREADY REACHED IN A SHORTER DISTANCE. One athlete able running, when 22 years old, in 14' (5000m) and 30' (10000m), must have, the next year, the ability to run 13'45" (improvement of 3" per km) and 29'10" (improvement of 5" per km), and the next year 13'30" and 28'20". This means that we increase the SPECIFIC ENDURANCE, making better the coefficient of resistance.
In this project, the importance of TEMPO RUNS is fundamental.
Some example from my top athletes of track (I don't speak of Marathon runners) : Shaheen (WR holder of steeple with 7'53"63) during winter used run on Monday every week 20 km at 3'10" pace in Iten, that in full season had to become 25 km at 3'05" every 2 weeks, when in the week in the middle we put a 10 km at 2'55". Ronald Kwemoi, the current winner of the last two DL in Doha (7'28" in 3000m) and in Eugene (Mile in 3'49") has in his plan two different distances (18-20 km at 3'05", and 10 km at 2'57") during the competition season, when there are workouts of speed in extension (for example, 30 x 200m recovery 200m jogging in 1'10" / 1'20", in 26"5/27", with the last in 23"3.
So, in my training, also for athletes of shorter distances (such as 1500m), if the athlete is an AEROBIC SUBJECT, the TR are a fundamental part, and athletes suffer a decrease of shape when they don't do.
Renato Canova wrote:
if the athlete is an AEROBIC SUBJECT, the TR are a fundamental part
What do you mean by "aerobic subject"? Was for example Juantorena NOT an "aerobic subject"?
Renato made a good points about thinking tempo runs as a spesific training for different events, which is not taken into consideration in the link.
"A tempo run, sometimes called a threshold run, is a common part of many training programs as coaches believe it is an effective way of improving lactate clearance. However, the science indicates that tempo paced runs should be avoided in favor of other paces. Tempo pace represents the no man's land between Long Slow Distance and High Intensity Interval Training. They are too fast to be long, and too slow to be intense. They can improve performance in the untrained, but not as well as other types of training and so they are the least effective form of training."
-There has been this kind of studies that says the same - that LT training is less efficient than more intense training. But these studies are short term studies without a long base training, consisting progressive, systematic basic endurance-(sub)-LT-workouts-moderate repetition workouts BEFORE moving into these "more effective" (short-term) forms of training And if you look into the references, a lot of these are done by rowers and cyclists. In the olympics, the longest rowing competition is 2 kilometres. What it takes, ~8minutes. That means that the LT isn´t that important. A strong VO2max and good basic endurance (so that the ST´s use the lactate as a fuel effectively) is more suited for rowing. But in running you can´t perform well without a strong LT at events from 5k and longer. With a good LT you can run the 5k or so at higher % of the VO2max, but you can even lengthen the time to exhaustion right at the VO2max. Cycling races takes hours and often several days of races to finish, the basic endurance and a high VO2max (on hills/attacks) are the cornerstones.
"A Tempo Run intended to be run at or near the pace corresponding to the Lactate Threshold. Lactate Threshold can be thought of as the transition from mostly aerobic to mostly anaerobic metabolism. In well trained athletes, paces below the Lactate Threshold can be kept up for prolonged periods (several hours), where *paces about the Lactate Threshold typically cannot be maintained for more than an hour*"
-You can stay much longer, even longer than 90 minutes at the real LT, when well trained. It´s the STEADY STATE, that means that you won´t accumulate lactate over~2,5-4mmol if the intensity is right, the end comes when the clycogen stores are depleted, forcing you to slow down. If you go too fast on the LT-workouts, you can´t do the LT-workouts nearly as frequently as you could with right intensity. Work even a bit above the LT, you maybe improve faster but the stagnation happens quickly. Staying a bit sub-LT for the most part of the LT-workouts allows you to recover faster. The variation of pace near the LT (HR 5-10bpm difference or so), slower and longer sub-LT/LT-runs depending the event... In my mind, *lifting the LT (HR at the LT moving to higher % of the VO2max) before the more intense training is the goal of base training on events where the LT plays a large role*. But I believe that the tempo runs a bit above the LT are very good stamina workouts and some kind of base work/aerobic support for intensities closer to the VO2max. You shouldn´t just do those that often. But if it´s close to event spesific, you emphasize it more of course. It depends, from the event and the individual. The running economy at or near event spesific paces shouldn´t be forgotten, it can get better a very long time, and allows you to continue to improve even after the metabolic systems has been maxed out. I don´t see much of studies that focus on this subject.
Tempo runs or threshold intervals can of course never be useless. They are
one of the main parts in the puzzle. I used to run 10 km at the track in 32.30 min,3.15 min/km at my threshold and raced 29.51 at 10000m .
COACH J.S
Ohyeah wrote:
Not useless, just a piece of the puzzle.
Bingo...
Besides what is a "tempo run." I never heard that term until recent years and even now it is ambiguous. I did a lot of "fast distance," which is as fast as you can go over about five miles without pushing it as if it is a race.
I admit I did way too many "fast distance runs." I should have been doing
more long runs of 12-22 miles; had at least one SPEED DEVELOPMENT workout per week (Even many sprint coaches do not understand what speed development is) Speed development is not HIIT, it's not 8 X 200!
It's more like 5 X 50 with full recoveries, fast running drills, bounding up hills, rope skipping, etc. Arthur Lydiard said weights could be used to develop the lower body but only if hills were not available. I agree with that philosophy. Upper body building is not real important in distance running.
(I liked the bench press to my downfall. Stay out of the freaking wt. room, except for specific body weight work on the lower body especially the hips/core area.)
I also think Fartlek is a good way to incorporate multiple speed training which is important for injury prevention as well as performance.
I'm mostly talking 1500 meter run and above although this advice also applies to the 800 in most cases.
Hard Interval Training is the MOST important work but not really done until the last ten weeks. See Arthur Lydiard books and videos.
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