jemima sumgong went from being a 2.29 marathon runner ,to 2.20.are these improvements normal for an EPO user?

Sumgong, Jeptoo, Yinglie - who else?

Rekrunner on the intricate excuses troll again.

before we get completely lost in the mathematics of the tails of normal distributions, consider how many 2:20 marathoners dopers like Rita Jeptoo and Sumgong were able to run away from when it counted. It isn't obvious to me that in the right conditions and in the mood to time trial they wouldn't have been capable of Radcliffe's WR. So I don't even buy the premise that today's dopers are 2:30+ behind the WR.

test2 wrote:

before we get completely lost in the mathematics of the tails of normal distributions, consider how many 2:20 marathoners dopers like Rita Jeptoo and Sumgong were able to run away from when it counted. It isn't obvious to me that in the right conditions and in the mood to time trial they wouldn't have been capable of Radcliffe's WR. So I don't even buy the premise that today's dopers are 2:30+ behind the WR.

Right. Well, regardless, it is the constant refrain of him that because EPO did not help X runner run faster than Y time, that this somehow proves that EPO does not work, or does not work at the top, or something. It is a really, really illogical argument.

Well if she gets caught at least she has the whole syrup thing to fall back on

basically retardo says EPO doesnt work on kenyans cause it works really GOOD on kenyans. so if they can say it only works on russians and europeans then he can keep crushing with his superior kenyans.

EPO works, people use it, and sumgong has prob been on it since she showed promise

Of course that EPO doesn't work - take a look here....

These are the published hematocrit variations (in percentage) of Gewiss riders in 1994 and 1995.

The win in the Fleche Wallonne was impressive because the team completely dominated the race with taking all podium places at the race with Argentin, Furlan and Berzin ahead of many greats of cycling at the time... this never happened in the past, never was repeated and it will NEVER EVER happen in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewiss%E2%80%93Ballan

Maybe Sky team or US Postal can/was able to do it - no way.

So Tyler Hamilton statement that EPO doesn't work on 1 day races is clearly wrong - you just need to be powerful enough - and he was not since he was a climber.

But for clowns posting here EPO is not working - on elite, and all of this guys were just.......clowns! and they didn't live and training at ALTITUDE - but DOCTOR was Italian...

If EPO doesn't work on Kenyans, then I propose that EPO is made legal.

EP(O)idemic wrote:

Of course that EPO doesn't work - take a look here....

These are the published hematocrit variations (in percentage) of Gewiss riders in 1994 and 1995.

The win in the Fleche Wallonne was impressive because the team completely dominated the race with taking all podium places at the race with Argentin, Furlan and Berzin ahead of many greats of cycling at the time...

This is really offtopic so too much attention shouldn't be paid to this, but honestly I've never quite figured out what to make about the "official" consensus on the rEPO-timeline, because by reading books by David Walsh, Juliet Macur and some other authors, one should simultaneously believe that...

1) ... rEPO started to kill cyclists in 1987...

2) ... while it was introduced into "the Peloton" only around 1990-1991, when Greg Lemond suddenly started to have problems to keep up with the speed of the rest of the TDF cyclists...

3)... and still it took until April 1994 and Ferrari's orange juice comments before cyclists learned about the powers of the new wonderdrug.

its certainly possible.all depends on whether or not ingrid kristiansen was clean.i have no idea on that one.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Right. Well, regardless, it is the constant refrain of him that because EPO did not help X runner run faster than Y time, that this somehow proves that EPO does not work, or does not work at the top, or something. It is a really, really illogical argument.

Completely agree. I suppose he's responding to the common BS argument made here that X athlete ran an unbelievable time and beat convicted dopers so X must have been doping too. Niether that or the converse argument make much sense to me.

I don't follow. I don't mind that it's off topic, please elaborate.

Test2,

The regulatory approval of in Europe can be used as a vague proxy for it's introduction in endurance sports.

FIS and other IOC sports knew before regulatory approval that Epo was a game-changer. How did they know? I don't know.

Evidence suggests the Dutch were early, pre-approval adopters and killed a few using too much. this was entirely pre-internet, so online references are nonexistent. Even if there was an autopsy for the dead athletes, how would an ME possibly figure it out?

That means that doping doctors like conconi, a UCI medical official, very likely knew all about it. Several of conconi's students, like Ferrari, went on to become doping doctors as well. Plenty of doping scandals started in Conconi's lab.

Rewind a few years prior to regulatory approval and you'll discover Thom Wiesel, the guy that did the usps cycling deal, was an angel investor in the company that created synthetic epo. Thom also owns USA cycling and still runs it.

It turns into a very small world very quickly with guys like Diack and Verbruggen knowing perfectly well all the doping and getting bribed to bury positives.

Wow...those cats really went high-octane. I remember those days; big, massive, muscular riders climbing the HC mountain-top finishes with some of the smaller, dimuinitive pure climbers...unheard in cycling prior to the EPO-era. And monster one-day stage races where a rider could attack early and single handedly hold off the charging peloton.

But I was a young naive amateur back then who thought those cats were "clean & green" and just adapted to some kind of new diet, vitamin supplements & the proverbial "altitude training." 😁 😄 😉

Yes, powerful rocket fuel, isn't?

Big Mig was just too BIG to be a climber, as well as B. Riis. Now that is obvious but at that time...Marathon guy can't be 188cm, he can but if he is 155cm with 48-50Kg it will be much faster it is the same with climbers.

Just recently saw some statements that Banesto bus was often seen close to M. Ferrari clinic and amount of money paid to him was just too much for claimed service. Slowly everything will emerge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantani

Part of Doping is interesting.

"It was revealed that Pantani's name appeared on a file marked "Dblab", seized from Conconi's Biomedical Research Institute at Ferrara, which detailed athlete's hematocrit levels between 1993 and 1995. In 1994, his haematocrit values fluctuated from 40.7% on 16 March, early in the season, to 54.55% on 23 May, during the first stages of the Giro d'Italia. His values reached 58% on 8 June, after winning two stages of the race, and were 57.4% on 27 July, after the Tour de France. In March 1995, his hematocrit values had dropped to 45%, but they reached 56% in July during the Tour de France, where he won two stages; and over 60% in October, after the accident in the Milano–Torino."

Some woman marathon runner had the similar values and fluctuations, maybe?

I just wonder how much better he would be if he was born and living at ALTITUDE.

Those fluctuations are not from EPO, just can't be explained, right? Probably dehydration of SOME kind...

And almost I forget HE WAS NOT ELITE!

Just 7 riders in history won Giro and Tour in one year.

Is it, for EPO not working guys, even worth mention that he was one of them. I know it is cycling not running - You got me.

I know you are joking about dehydration causing this but being severely dehydrated does raise hematocrit. If you are dehydrated enough, your blood will thicken. serious question: why isn't it possible to measure and correct for dehydration in these tests?

obviously add paula and chinese women to the list .....

they both had to do blood transfusions along with epo to

get hct up to these levels .

as stated epo alone for women wont take hct that high ,

and combination rare ,to find both used in right setting with right athlete

why can only think of afew female athletes that benefitted from it

and as for kristiansen and doping , similar gains in time's suggest doper

My problem is with the existing popular literature on rEPO.

It seems that authors such as Jeremy Whittle, Juliet Macur, David Walsh and most likely many others have this more-or-less same timeline about the rEPO use and recycle the same stories time and time again with very little thought process involved. I think the authors are mostly decent and many of them have published good books, but some parts of the chronology just doesn't add upp. Think about the following paragraphs from David Walsh's book From Lance to Landis (2007), which is one of my favourite books:

"There were propably sixty or seventy guys that year on EPO", estimated LeMond the prevalence of rEPO to journalist Jeremy Whittle, author of The Bad Blood (Bad Blood p. 114). That means that fully one third of all the 1991 TDF cyclists had access to the wonderdrug three years before the 1994 Gewiss-Ballan triple victory. Macur, Walsh and Whittle all still maintain that the 1994 edition of the Flèche Wallonne race was pretty much the point when the cycling world saw the miraculous effect of rEPO. When I go through their version of the story, I find it full of inconsistencies such as these:

- If "a well-trained elite athlete using r-EPO in an endurance event was virtually certain to beat a clean rival", how come presumably clean LeMond managed to win the 1989-1990 editions of the Tour de France?

- How come there were no one team/man supershows à la 1994 Fleche Wallonne in 1987-1989 when the availability of the product was almost negligible and limited only to a few teams?

- And if many authors maintain that rEPO had been around for seven years by 1994 and was already widespread and had dethroned LeMond, is the rEPO really the key explanation for the miraculous triple victory by the Gewiss-Ballan?

Occasionally it is almost as if the timeline when rEPO found its way into cycling is dependent on the context of the subject people are discussing about at the moment when the question arises. When the subject is health hazards, it is definitely 1987, when the subject is when Lance had his ass handed to him, it was 1994. Walsh himself claims in his book Seven Deadly Sins (2013) that rEPO use actually began in early 1990s, when the context is whether Lance Armstrong was right in allegedly accusing LeMond of taking rEPO in 1989 during an infamous phone conversation.

My reading is that there is some intellectual laziness going on and some of the stories are just too good not to be reprinted in their books.

I don't preclude the possibility that someone could find the timeline logical in emphasizing some parts over others. Who knows...

Honestly, igf Ir3 is something I know very little about. But your No.2 sadly is what I suspect. Dibaba uses androgel and microdosed EPO (of some variety). But she is now watched like a hawk. I would add that often these athletes have to make do with what they can get off the black market at any given time. It is widely rumoured that FloJo, used far too much of a bad batch of HGH in the mid-1980s. Some of the Eastern Bloc consumed too much of bad batches (in the 1970s) of the early roids like Dianambol etc now they have terrible health (sex changes). Kristiansen had roids, stimulants and blood doping in her era, whether she did or not (I'm not sure, but seriously she cut a lot of time off her best suddenly, she also started running WRs at 30) but it would be naive to doubt it.