do all EPO users lop almost 10 minutes off their personal bests in marathons? or is jemima the exception,not the rule? ive read somewhere users can expect about a 6% improvement on high dose EPO and about half that,on micro dosing.wow,it must be some drug !
jeff tallon wrote:
do all EPO users lop almost 10 minutes off their personal bests in marathons? or is jemima the exception,not the rule? ive read somewhere users can expect about a 6% improvement on high dose EPO and about half that,on micro dosing.wow,it must be some drug !
5-10% shows up in the studies pretty consistently. Note that very few of those studies are done with elite (heck even sub elite. Not a lot of studies deal with say sub 32k men who have trained for 5 years) athletes who have trained for years before starting to dope. And individual variation (i.e. one person gets 2% better, another gets 12%) still happens.
For reference Carl Lombard when from 14:23 to 13:19 over about 15 months in his mid 20s. He was busted for EPO shortly afterwards. I am sure he trained harder over that period but remember the reason he could train harder was because he was doping.
To some extent things like EPO level the field (i.e. sub elites benefit more than elites) but the evidence suggests that top end guys still get some improvement. Is it at the level where you can say everyone running sub 13 is doping or not is harder to say.
Well if you listen Renato Canova you will end up probably slower than before, on the other hand if you take it you will improve even more - red or blue pill it is your choice, try it.
No, Jemima didn't succeeded because EPO it is all genetics staff. Always some nasty Kenyan doctor fu@ked up it is not Rosas of course.
Just go ahead and try some rocket fuel nothing will happen if you don't reach famously 60% and then...shit can happen, so sleep with heart rate monitor and have stationary bike in vicinity to jump on it when alarm triggers.
That doesn't sound like a big difference, considering that it's over a marathon
Surprised I never heard of this 2.29 marathon, as it would be a world record by 2:02:55.
Metoo wrote:
That doesn't sound like a big difference, considering that it's over a marathon
Approximately 6%, that is a massive improvement for near elite level. Who says that she didn't use epo to run 2:29?
Look at Deeja Youngquist and Liza Hunter-Galvan as examples. 2:40+ marathoners without drugs and 2:29 marathoners with.
jeff tallon wrote:
do all EPO users lop almost 10 minutes off their personal bests in marathons? or is jemima the exception,not the rule? ive read somewhere users can expect about a 6% improvement on high dose EPO and about half that,on micro dosing.wow,it must be some drug !
It is a wonder drug. If you only knew.
epo glow. wrote:
Liza Hunter-Galvan 2:40 marathoner without drugs and 2:29 marathoners with.
She might have been on drugs to do 2:40ish in the first place.
You win Sumgong, you lose Sumgong. It's all in a day's drug fueled work.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
epo glow. wrote:Liza Hunter-Galvan 2:40 marathoner without drugs and 2:29 marathoners with.
She might have been on drugs to do 2:40ish in the first place.
No chance, we all know these dopers are caught because they're unlucky to test positive the one single time they use a PED.
Pure bad luck.
asfdasd@yadsffd.com wrote:
[quote]jeff tallon wrote:
do all EPO users lop almost 10 minutes off their personal bests in marathons? or is jemima the exception,not the rule? ive read somewhere users can expect about a 6% improvement on high dose EPO and about half that,on micro dosing.wow,it must be some drug !
asfdasd@yadsffd.com wrote:
5-10% shows up in the studies pretty consistently. Note that very few of those studies are done with elite (heck even sub elite. Not a lot of studies deal with say sub 32k men who have trained for 5 years) athletes who have trained for years before starting to dope. And individual variation (i.e. one person gets 2% better, another gets 12%) still happens.
Good point...individual variation is important. Athletes also experiment with it first (varying dosages, time periods, etc.) to see if they notice an improvement in performance before committing to a structured program targeting key competitions. Increases in baseline Hct/Hgb VO2max, improved time to exhaustion (dependent on the dose) is what the athlete and coach is evaluating. This is all covered in the scientific literature on EPO's influence on Hct/Hgb & VO2max and it's effect on endurance exercise.
And on individual variation, some athletes will be high-responders to oxygen-vector doping. Take the most recent case of Gamze Bulut (1500 silver/London) just sanctioned for hematological anomalies on her ABP during that time period. She ran a PB of 4:01.18 in the semi's at London - up from her previous PB of 4:18.23 set in July of 2011. That's a mind-blowing 17 second (6%) improvement in 1 year!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamze_BulutBut we don't what she would have run without. Perhaps another year would have gotten her to 4:14?
jeff tallon wrote:
do all EPO users lop almost 10 minutes off their personal bests in marathons? or is jemima the exception,not the rule? ive read somewhere users can expect about a 6% improvement on high dose EPO and about half that,on micro dosing.wow,it must be some drug !
That's why they call it "rocket fuel"...it can be a game changer for some athletes (Kenyans included ðŸ˜).
i remember gamze bulut.she showed signs of masculinisation,and she was covered in acne.her face was a mess.i think she was on potent steroids,as well as epo,to look like she did,and improve the way she did.
Metoo wrote:
That doesn't sound like a big difference, considering that it's over a marathon
Agree. I improved by 25 min. To sub 3, By losing weight and finding more time to train and recover.
Whatever happened to Aunt Jemima.
epo glow. wrote:
She might have been on drugs to do 2:40ish in the first place.
Of course with that time she entered Rosa's training camp and then she get real rocket fuel.
HandWringingLiberal wrote:
Metoo wrote:That doesn't sound like a big difference, considering that it's over a marathon
Agree. I improved by 25 min. To sub 3, By losing weight and finding more time to train and recover.
Whatever happened to Aunt Jemima.
Big difference between being an overweight and out of shape male and improving 25 minutes to sub-3 with a little training and diet adjustment and being an elite woman and dropping another 9 minutes by adding a 'vitamin'.
These posts remind me of the Layman question when someone tells them their mile PR is 4:15... "You never went for sub-4?". The two are so far away from each other the times are incomparable.
This is the improvement of a weak minded person. One who gets rid of good coaching for her husband instead and by pure placebo effect has these changes.
Imagine if she did it with a good itlaian coach with all that placebo effect and good training? She might be truly elite then, and he could have slipped her sugar pills instead of EPO there would have been no positives.
The problem of every poster in Letsrun is that NEVER they use the word TRAINING. When there is some improvement, everybody think that the training was the same, and the progress is due to doping.
The reality is very different. Looking, for example, at Jemima (I don't want to say she didn't use EPO : I want to explain something different that changed her career), we need to know that already in 2006, when she had a poor management, and a very little training, was able to run 10 km in 31'15" winning the 10 km on road in Atlanta, and showed good natural ability to recover after hard training, running in two following days two competitions of 10 km, the first on 13th May in Jersey City (2nd in 32'13"), the second the next day (14th May) in Cleveland, when she won with 32'19". All this with very little training (about 50 miles per week) both as volume and intensity. In 2007 she ran in Frankfurt marathon with the training of a junior (less than 100 km per week, and not long run) in 2:29'41", and after this quitted running, married, gave birth to a baby, and came back in 2012 training in professional way under Claudio Berardelli, immediately arriving 2nd in Boston in a tactical marathon (2:31:52) and showing good qualities. In 2013 she won Rotterdam in 2:23'27". then was 2nd in Chicago in 2:20'48", and after that time practically didn't improve anymore.
This development of career doesn't produce any suspicion, because is the normal evolution for some athlete with good talent who finally starts training in proper way.
This said, if it's acclarated she used EPO, we can't give EPO the merit of an improvement of 9' after many years of poor training.
What I want to try to explain, but here almost nobody wants to understand, is that many improvements are natural with the change of training, because in Kenya there are a lot of talented athletes who train very little, without eating enough and in poor conditions, and of course their results are of medium level only. This trend can continue for several years, till when the athlete is lucky to find some other athlete of top level inviting him in his camp for pacing himself. At this point, if the athlete has talent (for example, this is the case of Dennis Kimetto), and finally can eat two times per day, can run twice and can recover, improvement of 10 minutes from his previous PB is absolutely normal, and a 2:16 in difficult training conditions can easy become 2:06, without any doping.
The problem is the posters of Letsrun don't know the real situation of African athletes (not the top, but the hundred having talent but poor preparation and no assistance), are not able to recognize a real talent, don't know anything about the training of top athletes, and use as parameter the activity of average athletes that don't have any common point with talented African.
Of sure, a Kenyan athlete running 2:06 in 1985-1990, when also European were able to run in 2:07 (Carlos Lopes and Steve Jones), to win Olympics (Bordin 1988) and Boston (Bordin 1990), to win New York (Pizzolato 1984 and 1985, Poli 1986), didn't produce in the general mentality any suspicion of doping, because was at that time normal to see white people running under 2:10.