NYRR 5km- how can you mess it up?!

I ran a 10:29 first mile and a 4:45 third mile.

The mile markers were definitely way off, especially for Mile #1. There also didn't seem to be a course map anywhere.

p.s. Deena was just unbelieveable in the Women's 8k. Can you say "best female athlete in America"! She led from start to finish.

I'll take the flack on this one since I'm the measurer of record. When the course was originally measured, the open 5k was to finish the same as the elite 8k, w/ 500m on the track. At the last minute it was decided that this wouldn't work, since the runners who finished would have no way to get off the infield without crossing the line of runners still finishing, so the finish setup that was used was designed. As a result, the orginal start line was moved back 400m to make up for the distance lost on the track. I did this Friday morning in between taking Deena, Jen Rhines and Ryan Shay for a tour of the 8k course. In my haste to get back to Manhattan I forgot to adjust the 1 and 2 mile points by a similar distance, and when going out to mark them later that day it also failed to occur to me.

I knew something was up during the race (I ran it too) when my 1km split was closer to what I thought I'd be hitting at the mile, and the mile was just as slow. Believe me all kinds of thoughts, none of them good, raced through my head at this point, trying to figure out how I'd screwed this up, how I'd measure what the true distance was, and worst, if the same error had crept into the elite 8km races to follow.

When I got to 2km the pace was back to what I'd expected, and I was able to deduce my mistake, and realized the overall distance was correct.

That's the bottom line, but I realize that mislocated splits can mess up people's pacing plans and play havoc with their race psyche - believe me, it did with mine.

So, the good news is that the overall distance was 5,000 meters. It's just the way it was sliced up that was wrong. As someone who's measured Olympic Trials courses and validated world record runs, I should know better, but this time, I made a mistake. Fortunately, it wasn't a horrible one like a mismeasured total distance, and everything was perfect for the 8k races. If Deena had run 3 seconds faster I'm confident the course would have stood up to validation.

Congrats to all the organizers and other involved. If you'd seen the course back in February when it was first conceived, you'd know how much work has been done.

Thanks JimG for the prompt honest answer.I know how .many hats you juggle on or near race day and things do happen Admit, Ajust, Advance.

wineturtle wrote:

Thanks JimG for the prompt honest answer.I know how .many hats you juggle on or near race day and things do happen Admit, Ajust, Advance.

You're welcome. I ain't no pizza franchiser, after all.

great day for photos

http://www.photorun.net/NYRR8k05.HTM

You're welcome. I ain't no pizza franchiser, after all./quote]

Nor I, but I do know what a hard job putting these things together can be. Ask Allen S. How I had to move a Con Ed digging crew off the NYC Marathon course near 8.5 miles back in 1978. The leaders past about 2 mins after I got them off to the sidewalk.Things happen at the last moment and you just have to play the cards in your hand no matter what they are.

JimG, thanks for the frank response. But this doesn't seem to be an isolated incidence. There were clearly off splits (although not to the extreme of the 5K) in brooklyn half last weekend, the 15K and the 7 mile in February and January, respectively. I'm not at all saying you're to blame for these, but mismarked splits seem to be endemic to nyrr races these days. So what gives?

I've only measured a few courses in NYC, but with all the various markings on the roads and places you could landmark a split from, it's not an easy task.

The one good thing today was the miles were so far off everyone knew they were wrong.

JimG, I don't know you and this isn't a dig against YOU or the work you do.....but it's pathetic when an organization who has been in existence since 1958 or so just can't get it right. Seems they put so much effort into the big media circus events they seem to have forgotten about the "little things". And especially regarding races held in Central Park, a course that hasn't changed since the 1800's---Mark a stone on the curb, write it down, and remember where you put it. In the late 1970's/early 1980's, this shit didn't happen. It's only in the last ten years that all the mismeasurements have been happening with pathetic frequency.

In the 70s and 80s? Like when the course at boston was short? For God's sake, they misplaced the mile markers! In a 5k! Listening to you idiots trapped in 1979, when men were men, I always got the impression that you weren't supposed to care about splits, just run hard.

I'm not suggesting we run against the clock, not at all, but at least in longer races, it'd be good to have an accurate measure of what pace we're running just so we can gauge how we feel against time etc.

JimG wrote:

The one good thing today was the miles were so far off everyone knew they were wrong.

Jim, between you, David Katz & I, we could spend hours dazzling, confusing and entertaining Letsrun readers w/tales of measuring woes, boo-boo's and such. We're human and so are the those putting on the races and mistakes happen...some w/in our control, some not. I cringe when I think of some of the things I've seen happen to courses I've measured and am sure there are other things that've happened I don't want to know about.

You get a thumbs up for coming here, taking the blame and explaining what happened. Nothing like it has happened to me. Well, there was that one time. And, um, that other time but other than that, I'm clean.

Hey folks, if you don't think it happens at the very highest levels, remember one of the early WCs where they sent the women marathoners out of the track a lap early at the start, and everyone was running like low 2:20s at the finish?

To answer the earlier post, NYRR is indeed aware that while their elite events like today's race, Mini, NYCM can hold their own against any in the world, the "regular" events have room for improvement. And they are commited to making said improvements, trust me.

skylon wrote:

JimG, I don't know you and this isn't a dig against YOU or the work you do.....but it's pathetic when an organization who has been in existence since 1958 or so just can't get it right. Seems they put so much effort into the big media circus events they seem to have forgotten about the "little things". And especially regarding races held in Central Park, a course that hasn't changed since the 1800's---Mark a stone on the curb, write it down, and remember where you put it. In the late 1970's/early 1980's, this shit didn't happen. It's only in the last ten years that all the mismeasurements have been happening with pathetic frequency.

You are a whiner and an idiot.

Jim has done a lot for the sport and, knowing him, I have seen how hard he works to put on great races for athletes. He does not work for NYRRC.

You, however, come on here and complain like a 4 year old girl. Grow up, and, better yet, try measuring hundreds of courses yourself and, when you inevitably make a mistake, I hope you will come on here to be berated accordingly.

The name calling is pointless. Jim does a great job and admitting a mistake raises his stature. The NYRRC rarely acknowledges mistakes because they have correctly deduced that the throngs of entrants do not care. Seriously, how can you screw up Central Park mile markers? Keep in mind that gate receipts for each race is probably around $50,000 and there is no traffic during the race except for angry cyclists. If Jim says the club is committed to changing for the better then i'm hopeful.

Psychiatric Headquarters wrote:

Seriously, how can you screw up Central Park mile markers?

Part of that is due to the changes in the courses. In the past most of the races started/finished at Engineers Gate at 90th St. Then the Parks Dept asked NYRR to move the staging area further north, so all the courses were remeasured. But then (I think) they were moved even more. So you might have 3 different courses for the same distance (and maybe more, as sometimes a course will run in the opposite direction). When the people go out to place the mile splits, they could be working from memory, and possibly mixing two courses (and their splits) together.

This doesn't just happen at NYRR events, trust me. The fact that they put on so many more than anyone else just gives them more chances to screw up.

The fact is that every race organizer should have a course certification map in hand when they go out to mark the course. And any runner who's interested can get a copy of any map online at the USATF search engine. For a couple minutes and a sheet of paper you'll know that things are right (or not).

JimG is a class act. Thanks, Jim, for immediately clarifying for all, and having the guts to admit it here.

Maybe someone will also come on the board and explain why the start for 1500 runners was about 12 feet wide and runners near me were forced to dodge oncoming traffic about 800 meters into the race.

Elite races were great, thanks.

BaggageBoy wrote:

Maybe someone will also come on the board and explain why the start for 1500 runners was about 12 feet wide and runners near me were forced to dodge oncoming traffic about 800 meters into the race.

Elite races were great, thanks.

I can probably answer that one as well.

When the courses were laid out, we wanted to make them as similar as possible, both to minimize marking/marshalling problems, and to give the open runners a feel of what the elites were going to run later. The original 5K course was not only going to finish with 500m on the track (as noted earlier) but start that way as well. However, we realized that if the field got too large, the back of the packers would still be on the first turn when the leaders were coming around to exit the stadium. So an alternate road start was also measured. When the decision was made to finish on the track immediately after coming into the stadium, the start was moved back 400m (but unfortunately the dummy measuring things forgot to do that to the miles splits). The new start location wasn't perfect, to be sure - it would have been a lot better if it had been even a few meters ups the road where it was wider and straighter, but it was where it was. It might have been possible to add distance somewhere else, but it was an 11th hour move, so we chose the quick and dirt solution. Believe me, the original start point was worse - 400m up the road, a long walk from the stadium, and on an even tighter turn going slightly uphill (you might remember that from the race, it was where you started looping back toward the stadium).

As to the cars, I have no idea about that, nor the vehicles out on the course. The couple times I was there measuring the only ones I saw were NYPD cars and Parks Dept trucks and city busses. One of the more desolate places I've measured for being so close to a major metropolis (but nice for riding b/c of that).