I agree. Others should not ridicule, either. My training was not "nothing."
I agree. Others should not ridicule, either. My training was not "nothing."
outsiderunner wrote:
What do you think?
Please help...
What a surprise.
I am sure it does not have anything to do with:
...Four consecutive weeks with marathon RACE PACE runs of 23m, 22m, 20m, and 18m for a 47 year old human with a maximum mileage of 77 miles in a week….Wait a second…. ???WTF???
What could go wrong?
Bingo, this is what I was trying to say last night when I was saying you cut mileage too much and we're racing your last few long runs after you explained your last 5-6 weeks. Thanks for explaining more explicitly and with less sass Johnny. Peaked too early.
I think the easiest way to explain it is that if you go into a long run too fresh, but your doing a long run shorter than your race distance, you're basically priming yourself for that shorter distance. If you keep your weekly mileage up, then run your long run the weekly fatigue helps you adapt for the last few miles of the marathon. Then, in the last 2-3 weeks when new fitness adaptations won't happen in time or degrade too much by cutting mileage, you taper back and suddenly you feel extra fresh for that one, most important long run - the race.
If your follow-up question is"why not run race distance in training" it's because it's believed that for most runners your form starts breaking down after 3 hours, and the adaptations aren't particularly better than splitting it up over a couple days which reduces risk of injury.
The Hanson's marathon method (Olympian Desi Linden's team) explains this concept of "cumulative fatigue" pretty well but their book-published plans may be easy for you in your mind, peaking around 60mpw. Basically for public consumption their long run for the whole plan is only 16 miles, but it's on the back of 10 miler and a 10 mile MP run the day before and you run 6 days a week with a track workout 2 days after the long run, so you aren't running that 16 on fresh legs. They do the same general philosphy with the elites they coach, but only 16 is prescribed for mere mortal runners because the expectation is time on feet for 16 is long enough. For elites they can obviously run 20-22 in that time. I think you can buy plans online or hire their coaching services online for plans more difficult than what's in their book.
outsiderunner wrote:
I agree. Others should not ridicule, either. My training was not "nothing."
Sounds like whatever you were doing in July, august, september was great...but I think you cashed it in in October unintentionally.
outsiderunner wrote:
So, I would achieve more by doing less?
How about 10 mpw, with a long run of three miles? I would have to keep that long run really easy, no faster than 10:00 pace...just to make sure that no adaptation occurs.
If you're going to go to the extreme we can go the other way and say you should run 1000mpw at 10k pace for maximum adaptation. Once you understand there's a point where you can do more harm than good, you can understand that you can do more with less. But I don't think that's the case anymore, I think you did the wrong stuff in October.
Sorry, one last thing, the other problem with fresh tapered long runs is when you go into the race and start even faster than those long runs because your racing instead of training, you REALLY aren't ready for it. You don't get to cash in taper magic if you've tapered for your long runs
David S. Pumpkins wrote:
Sounds like whatever you were doing in July, august, september was great...but I think you cashed it in in October unintentionally.
True! And it can't be overstated just how successful outsiderunner's training has been, and the effort and commitment it took to achieve. Juggling career, family, etc., at age 47, all while logging incredible mileage in the summer heat and hills of Virginia. Impressive! And, as has been repeatedly pointed out, the marathon itself was a high-quality performance, despite the pre-race hassles, despite missing the time goal ... AND despite having cashed in the "taper magic" a month too soon. Best wishes, outsiderunner ... hope today's run goes well, and you can get to the starting line this weekend.
outsiderunner wrote:
Forgot to ask: what would be wrong with being tapered, or ready, for the weekly long run?
When you are tapering you are not building fitness but cashing in on fitness that is already built. Thus, tapering for a run will make you faster on that particular run, but in the long run you would be better off continuing to build fitness rather than tapering each week. This is why a lot of runners who race more frequently (e.g. high school and collegiate runners) will train through early season races and only taper/peak for key races at the end of the season.
While I don't think you should taper for your long runs, I do think it's a good idea to take it very easy or maybe even take off the day before your hard efforts so that you feel relatively fresh and ready to go. This is probably more psychological than anything else.
Allen1959 wrote:
David S. Pumpkins wrote:Sounds like whatever you were doing in July, august, september was great...but I think you cashed it in in October unintentionally.
True! And it can't be overstated just how successful outsiderunner's training has been, and the effort and commitment it took to achieve. Juggling career, family, etc., at age 47, all while logging incredible mileage in the summer heat and hills of Virginia. Impressive! And, as has been repeatedly pointed out, the marathon itself was a high-quality performance, despite the pre-race hassles, despite missing the time goal ... AND despite having cashed in the "taper magic" a month too soon. Best wishes, outsiderunner ... hope today's run goes well, and you can get to the starting line this weekend.
Thank you so much for saying this, Allen1959. You understand my feelings and situation very well. I put a lot into my NYC cycle, and that is why coming up short on my time goal was/is so hard to take.
I wish you all the best, and very blessed Thanksgiving. I wish all the best to the other posters here, too.
Still have some nasal congestion, and tossed and turned til about 3:00 am, but will try to hit the roads here soon.
Certainly my congestion and runny nose are making sleep difficult, but do you think me not having run in a few days is keeping me up, too?
outsiderunner wrote:
You understand my feelings and situation ...
I can also completely empathize with your reaction to the missed time goal. Decades ago I missed my time goal by 40 seconds. I was trained, ready and capable. The weather was good. The course challenging enough just to make it interesting. But I made two crucial mistakes. I lined up two far back at the start, and lost nearly a full minute in the congested first mile. I had all my planned mile splits on a laminated card, and in a panic to get back on track, ran the third mile in 5:20 when goal pace was 6:05. Stupid! And costly, I'm sure. I was devastated at the finish ... even though the time really meant nothing to anyone but me. I was still very young, but then marriage, career, house, kids became the priorities, and that imperfect day was to never be bettered. So go for it when you can, because you never know ...
Happy Thanksgiving!
This is going to be a tough call. Just got back from a six-miler. While It was great to be out on the roads again, my congestion was definitely inhibiting my breathing. I have allergies, and have gotten accustomed to a "goopy nose," but this was a tad more than that. I have until 7:30 tonight to decide on NCR. I could be fine in a day or two, but I do not know if I want to waste $105 (I do have a wife and five children to feed).
Also, I got a reminder e-mail message a few days ago from the NYRR, encouraging me to claim my guaranteed entry for the NYC Half. My 3:04 gave me guaranteed entry for the NYC Half, on March 19, and for next year's NYC Marathon. I looked at some of the race details for the NYC Half, and the logistics seem better than those of the NYC Marathon.
Just stop it. I can't handle it anymore. Are you asking if you should run an early spring half after you said it's physically impossible for you to train in winter? Or a fall race after you blamed the course and logistics for your choke job? I believe you could be the guy who ran the times you quoted, but I don't believe this is how you are actually thinking about things. This has to be some troll work.
After all...what happened to the guy that once said "build slowly. I suffered a fractured tibia early on because I failed to do this. I would tell them: ‘Do not worry, you will get faster. Train smartly and run within your limits.' I would also add, when racing, never go out too fast. Never. Always have a good sense of your current fitness. This will enable you to run at an even effort, and then finish strongly. Even splits, or perhaps a negative split, should be one’s goal."
You're ignoring everything this guy said just last year!
Good points, Mt Runmore, but I never said that it is physically impossible for me to train in winter. My point was that I did not want to do marathon training in winter. I believe I mentioned the cold-weather 20-milers, and so I thought I was clear on that. If not, I apologize. Hence, a March half marathon might be possible, but those colder days would still be somewhat of an issue.
I mentioned the 2017 NYC Marathon only in reference to what I have earned from my marathon race performance. Also, I like to be open and honest, and getting revenge on NYC has crossed my mind. One thing I could eliminate is that 90-minute bus ride fiasco--I could just take the ferry. Five minutes into the bus ride, I was ready to use the restroom, and there is no restroom on the bus. I think I will be looking more for a sub-3 type of course/event, but I mention this in an effort to be thorough in regard to my thoughts.
Yes, I have said the words that you quote--you are a sharp. I have, though, stated repeatedly here that I felt great in those first 20 miles, with many of them feeling closer to jogging. Thus, I was thinking I would put up a negative split.
David S. Pumpkins wrote:
Sorry, one last thing, the other problem with fresh tapered long runs is when you go into the race and start even faster than those long runs because your racing instead of training, you REALLY aren't ready for it. You don't get to cash in taper magic if you've tapered for your long runs
This might be your best point yet, David.
One more thing, Mt. Runmore...
Choke job? Really? I finished that race, and had significant leg pain...pain that I have never felt in a race. Ritz, among others, did not even finish.
outsiderunner wrote:
One more thing, Mt. Runmore...
Choke job? Really? I finished that race, and had significant leg pain...pain that I have never felt in a race. Ritz, among others, did not even finish.
Ritz had a preexisting foot injury for at least 10 days prior to the race. You got muscle cramps from running outside your fitness. Apples and oranges. You had sub 3:00 fitness on October 1 and probably still on November 6 and you didn't even PR. You can say it wasn't a choke, but you have to attribute missing your goal to something.
Curious to hear which of the reasons you've been given so far you believe hurt you the most at NYC? What do you plan to change this weekend or the next time you train/race for a marathon? Or you were just a victim of an unfortunate day?
Dude, please run NCR. You are fascinating, and I would love to meet you in person. BTW, you don't need to decide by this evening b/c you can still register on Saturday (race) morning.
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