Foam Rolling/Massage Counterproductive to Running?

you might need to inhibit an over active muscle. Also if the wrong muscle is overactive it will interfere with another muscle that needs to work optimally.

Loosey Goosey wrote:

A lot of articles I've read recently (Science of Running, RW, etc) emphasis how tighter/stiffer muscles in the legs lead to more force / energy while running, comparing our legs to springs. The stronger the spring (or stiffer the muscles) the more force/energy is released.

Foam rolling and massage both play a large part in recovery but also lead to more relaxed, looser muscles.

What I'm curious about is whether foam rolling/ massage should be discarded since it hinders running performance or is there a fine line between too much/ too little or does foam rolling/massage have no effect at all on muscle stiffness?

Great question. I think this falls into the area of icing -- should you fight inflammation at all costs, or do you want your body to become inflamed so it can come back stronger? The same type of dilemma arises when looking at massage/deep tissue work.

I think guys at the highest level of the sport have developed their muscles as much as possible, so it makes sense to focus strictly on recovery, which obviously leads to more training. For the rest of us beneath 100 miles per week, I think massage and foam rolling is only useful in the case of an injury. My two cents.

Coach wrote:

you might need to inhibit an over active muscle. Also if the wrong muscle is overactive it will interfere with another muscle that needs to work optimally.

Agree. also you need to distinguish foam rolling/massage from self-myofascial release which is what one aims for with overactive muscles.

Loosey Goosey wrote:

A lot of articles I've read recently (Science of Running, RW, etc) emphasis how tighter/stiffer muscles in the legs lead to more force / energy while running, comparing our legs to springs. The stronger the spring (or stiffer the muscles) the more force/energy is released.

Foam rolling and massage both play a large part in recovery but also lead to more relaxed, looser muscles.

What I'm curious about is whether foam rolling/ massage should be discarded since it hinders running performance or is there a fine line between too much/ too little or does foam rolling/massage have no effect at all on muscle stiffness?

I simply could not run any more until started using a foam roller about this time last year. I was watching the WCs in Beijing and noticed some Caribbean sprinters/hurdlers using then in their warm up. If it's good enough for low 10s or better guys it is good enough for me.

I do understand your post's logic, perhaps runners should take care stretching.

yes you want your muscles active and too much foam rolling can be counter productive. The problem is that your tissues carry trauma. Scar tissue must be removed for the muscle to function smoothly and properly. Those that are sprinting fast and often create scar tissue all the time and massage work is imperative to their success.

A good honest book about the roll of massage and drugs is Speed Trap. Charlie Francis gives wonderful insight in his book about how important massage is to being supple and fast.

I think this is laregely more related to static stretching before sprint races. You do not want something "over stretched". But foam roalling more or less compresses the muscle to relax it, instead of stretching it out and inhibiting force production.

You hear mostly people refering to being tight and springing as people that have strong ankles, knees, and hips so they do not look like they sink when they run. This is not so much the individual muscles themself.

The only example I have ever seen of someone wanting to compete 'tight' were some jumpers in college. They would always lift the day before a meet because they felt that they were more springing when a little 'stiff'. The two were a 51'9 triple jumper and 7'6 high jumper. It was probably more benificial for the high jumper because max speed production is not as important, just the pop.

Loosey Goosey wrote:

A lot of articles I've read recently (Science of Running, RW, etc) emphasis how tighter/stiffer muscles in the legs lead to more force / energy while running, comparing our legs to springs. The stronger the spring (or stiffer the muscles) the more force/energy is released.

Foam rolling and massage both play a large part in recovery but also lead to more relaxed, looser muscles.

What I'm curious about is whether foam rolling/ massage should be discarded since it hinders running performance or is there a fine line between too much/ too little or does foam rolling/massage have no effect at all on muscle stiffness?

Guess which muscles dont get to run at all? Injured ones.

Yes they should, since stretching has been proven to be bad before competing.

yeah you have no idea what you're talking about. How is muscle soreness different in an elite runner vs non-elite? Basically what you're saying is "well you only got stabbed, not shot, so we're not going to give you pain killers."

Massage is the best thing you can do to help with recovery.

As with Hate and Pure Hate, it is a matter of balance. One extreme or the other is impure and will destroy you.

A certain stiffness is of course good. Gumby is not a good runner, nor is a monk who sits in full Lotus position 24 hours a day.

A certain amount of foam rolling is good.

This is common sense. Overdoing it or underdoing it are bad. Just doing it is good.

Let the Pure Hate flow but not too much.

Only wimps need massage and foam rollers. Real men run without them.

"There is no easy way. And that’s what all of these gadgets try to show you is some kind of easier way of training. But there isn’t one. I ran without heart-rate monitors, without sports cords or yoga or chiropractors or physical therapists or massage therapists."

http://running.competitor.com/2015/10/features/king-of-pain-interview-with-marathon-legend-steve-jones_136462#REPo8oO7magiEYfO.99

The Way We Were wrote:

Only wimps need massage and foam rollers. Real men run without them.

"There is no easy way. And that’s what all of these gadgets try to show you is some kind of easier way of training. But there isn’t one. I ran without heart-rate monitors, without sports cords or yoga or chiropractors or physical therapists or massage therapists."

http://running.competitor.com/2015/10/features/king-of-pain-interview-with-marathon-legend-steve-jones_136462#REPo8oO7magiEYfO.99

And you were slow and injured.

Steve Jones was "slow and injured?" That's awesome trolling, son.

The Realest Man wrote:

And you were slow and injured.

i am chronically very tight and have tendency to develop hip/achilles and IT band issues and injuries. 34 years old

I wasn't really rolling/stretching/doing yoga type stuff and got to 2:37 marathon on about 45-55 miles a week

i started foam rolling twice a day, 15 minutes each. plus i build in a massage every 2-3 weeks for the 12-14 weeks before a marathon. Usually end up getting 4-5 massages before key race, after hard weeks or tune up races. i always foam roll before big races, workouts, and morning runs to loosen up

My marathon PB went to 2:29 on same mileage. Also ran a 1:11 half and 32:35 10k in ONE year since that 2:37

The foam rolling not only loosens you up before and after runs, before bed, but the time using it surprisingly strengthens your arms, triceps, and abs. I no longer do core work and have basically scaled back my pushups pullups by over 50% and look way more cut and am stronger than when i did no foam rolling. first time in my life i have a six pack

works for some, not others. i'd say if you are naturally loose, be careful about masage .but if you are always a tight, a massage makes you feel like you have new legs.

i feel like i lift my leg 3-4 inches higher when running a few days after a massage and feel much bouncier.

personal choice

As you've received a bit of a mixed back with regards to serious answers, here's your simple answer: Stiff muscles before a race, probably good. Stiff muscles always? Injured. The spring metaphor is an accurate one, and we can extend it, if you freeze a spring it is indeed more stiff, it will also break. Nuff said?

Same logic with ice baths, we used them on my team before racing, but otherwise would use heated salt baths to relax our muscles.

Massage, if you can afford it, should be a normal part of your routine, I try to go twice a month, but never within 4 days of racing. I foam roll after every run, it's been incredible for me as I'm running 70 mpw, whereas before I couldn't get over 40 without injury.

yes foam roll wrote:

yes you want your muscles active and too much foam rolling can be counter productive. The problem is that your tissues carry trauma. Scar tissue must be removed for the muscle to function smoothly and properly. Those that are sprinting fast and often create scar tissue all the time and massage work is imperative to their success.

A good honest book about the roll of massage and drugs is Speed Trap. Charlie Francis gives wonderful insight in his book about how important massage is to being supple and fast.

I should have added that like the OP a certain amount of tightness improves economy but there is a tendency to keep tightening and that is why foam rollers are helpful.

In the short term, yes, any activity that loosens your muscles is bad. For example, I once had my worst race ever the day after getting a legs massage. Why? Because I had never had one before! Elites often get massages weekly, even in season when trying to set world records. People static and active stretch their legs every day and are unaffected.

Moral? Until you are accustomed to stretching, it will reduce the elasticity of your muscles.

I have some sort of systematic tightness with all my muscles/tendons in my body which ultimately turned out to the be source of my shin splint pain. No idea what the root cause of it is, but if I choose to simply recover after any type of workout that uses my legs, it takes a minimum of 5 days for my legs to recover to the point that I can get an effective work out in. If I use Trigger point therapy which my massage therapist taught me, I can reduce that recovery time down to 24-36 hours. If I go with a full on massage, I'm good for 4-5 workouts before I need either another massage or trigger point therapy.

I have 5 major trigger points in each of my calves. I've only been able to induce 2 trigger points in my hamstrings as they are hard to get to and I have a really hard time get the angle where I can produce enough of the right pressure to get any trigger points in my quads, I have to rely on my massage therapist for those

For foam rolling, my entire life I could always sit down with my legs out straight in front of me and have no issues touching my right toe, my left toe, no matter how much stretching, I couldn't ever touch it. When I got my first foam roller, it hurt like a bitch, but after 3 weeks I could touch both my toes equally fine and have been able to greatly improve my flexibility in that direction. The tightness was solely attributed to my IT band.

So I am pro massage and foam rollers. I'm able to run more miles and pain free more than I was ever able to when I ran XC in HS.

As far as icing goes, i've seen little to no benefit for recovery, only for injuries, but that's just me

Fkfkfifk wrote:

In the short term, yes, any activity that loosens your muscles is bad. For example, I once had my worst race ever the day after getting a legs massage. Why? Because I had never had one before! Elites often get massages weekly, even in season when trying to set world records. People static and active stretch their legs every day and are unaffected.

Moral? Until you are accustomed to stretching, it will reduce the elasticity of your muscles.

Yes I had this many years ago, they loosened me up, hitting all the pressure points. I was so, so loose and man did I run freely, but the next day. When I tried to run I was stiff and sore, I think I may have pulled something. From then on I only ever had a soft quick rub when free but generally I avoided them like the plague.