10 x 400m in 5:57min/mile pace, 400m jog rec. How fast is this kid's 5K?

Intervals session done. Did 12 x 400m, 400m jog, and got it done @ 5:50min.mile pace. Splits were 79, 91, 88, 87, 89, 88, 89, 87, 89, 86, 89, and 87; felt shockingly more aerobic than last weeks ('cept for the last one, but I pushed through it). Next week, the recoveries will be 200m. I'll start running the tempos a bit faster now that I've got them at my target duration.

400s with 400 jog are hardly aerobically taxing at all

What does this mean, I apologize for not understanding immediately.

the repeats are too short to tax the aerobic system with the amount of recovery you are getting. You are pretty much completely recovered from the previous 400 (if running at approximately 5K or slower) by the time you start the next one. Most people would do this workout at mile pace to work on efficiency and it is not a predictor of anything.

I've built from 8 reps to 12 now, since I'm new to speedwork. I plan on reducing the recoveries to 200m next week.

I would work on making the repeats longer with the same recovery and same total volume of work. i.e if doing 12 x 400 do 8 x 600 then 6x800 then 5x1000

Speculator Sam wrote:

I've built from 8 reps to 12 now, since I'm new to speedwork. I plan on reducing the recoveries to 200m next week.

You are going the wrong way about it. You are turning it into an endurance workout, but want it to be a speed workout. Keep it at 8 reps, keep the rest high, and work on getting every single rep below 80.

Ah, ok. Thanks for the helpful info :) I was actually hoping to build up to mile or 1.5 mile repeats at a similar pace by August; there's this ascending-descending bridge I want to conquer that's 0.7 long. Something tells me that doing climbs at the same pace will making maintain speed on flat road lots easier.

Vick Vinegar wrote:

I think your kid can go sub-18.

Lol that's a good one. I really hope you're a troll

Yeah, 18 is like 5:46 per mile right? I wouldn't assume it possible 'til the 20min. tempo becomes like 6min pace. 18:30 is extreme best I think, but definitely sub 20 if the tempo'll speed up.

10x400 is generally an Anerobic Endurance workout when done with jog a lap or ~3min recovery... this means the 400s are done at mile pace. This workout has little correlation to 5k ability and would be a poor judge of it. It's also not "speed work" as I would consider that anything faster than anerobic power pace (800 pace). A better judge of ability would be a 3x1600 with 7min recovery at as fast and even as he could handle. Use that judge VO2 and then shape the following workouts around it in rotating fashion by week:

1. 5x1k at slightly faster than Vo2 pace w/ 1:1 rest .... 3x400 @ AP w/7min rest or 20min Tempo at steady state

2. 2x [5x500] @ AE w/ 2min r ...and 5 bt the set .... and 5x1k at Anerobic Threshold pace

3. 3x1600 @V02 ... aim for maybe -5 seconds per mile from the prior time this was done. .... also working some speed work this week: 200 - 150 - 100 - 6x50

You could rotate through that for about 9-12 weeks.

This is all very good info, and I'd be stupid not to write it down and consider it. My only question is that yesterday the intervals were 12 x 400m at avg. 5:50 per mile, had worked up from 8 reps since I'm new to this type of workout, would the info still apply or how should I interperet this considering the two added reps? Thanks for reading.

It is 5:47 pace so yeah around 6 min pace for a 20 min. tempo and better than 5:20 mile speed (at least).

Speculator Sam wrote:

He done 20:21 for 5K, it's been months and he's been doing lots more volume now since then. The kid used to do 20-30miles a week, and heavy lifting twice a week. His training more structured now too.

7:15s seems like awfully chill tempo running for a guy that's low 20s shape or better. I'd be expecting high 6 pace or a smidge faster

Something just a bit under 19:00.

You need mile repeats in the 5:15 range and tempo efforts at around 6:20/mile if you really want to break 18 minutes.....and then you cannot mess up all that training by .....going out too hard. My best 5k was 17:09, but I got sucked up with a starting pack and hit the first mile at 5:05. Died in the second mile and recovered (a bit) to close out the 5k. I "think" I should have been capable of around 16:30, BUT not on stupid pacing.

George Parrott wrote:

Something just a bit under 19:00.

You need mile repeats in the 5:15 range and tempo efforts at around 6:20/mile if you really want to break 18 minutes.....

woah, those mile repeats would be way too fast for a guy barely sub-18 pump the brakes a bit.

to the OP: are you doing any running at paces faster than 5k race pace? I would consider doing some repeat 200's at roughly mile pace to work on your turnover. It will make it easier to run relaxed and within yourself at 5k pace.

Just a suggestion, those kinds of workouts are also a nice way to break up the monotony of training. If you're running 400 repeats @86-88, then maybe 8-10x200 @38-40 taking plenty of rest. It's not a particularly difficult workout, but It'll make you a better more well-rounded runner. If it's too easy then you can add more reps the next time round.

Running a couple quick 100's or 150's after your tempo runs would also be beneficial.

Typical 20min. Tempo is done in 6:40 pace, the tempo was extended to 30min., two minutes each week, to accommodate the specific demands of a 4 Mile race at closer to 6-6:15min. pace. It will get faster.

I do 5 x 100m strides after easy runs of less than 60min., so that's at least twice a week. I'm planning doing workouts with mile pace in there closer to the race (Sept. 17th, 13 weeks out currently). After the race and an easy period, I actually wanted to get my mile under 5min., was gonna do workouts like the 200s listed above; but one thing at a time here :) Thanks for sharing this insight Bonkers, I'm doing my next tempo tomorrow, so I'll pick up the pace in the Tempo and add in some 100s/150s (just a couple?).

Speculator Sam wrote:

The kid's preparing for a 4 MIiler is Sept. He's built up to a 30min. Tempo at 7:14min/mile; obviously holding back a little, since he's done 2min. increments over the weeks; His typical 20min Tempo is like 6:40 pace. He's doing his 5K time trial July 2nd., so he has 2 more tempos and one more interval session before then. He runs 30-40miles/wk, cross trains with cycling, swimming, and calisthenics (core, single leg squats, push-ups, swiss ball work, balancing exercises, lunges + twist w/ 10lbs. plate).

Also, when would you say it's time to start doing half-mile, mile, and mile-and-a-half repeats? Thanks for reading!

That is a pretty easy workout. The rests are way to long. Do a real workout and then report back. Do lane 8 400's. Run a 400 starting on the lane 8 stagger. Walk to the lane 8 stagger and then start over. Repeat. Those are fun.