10 x 400m in 5:57min/mile pace, 400m jog rec. How fast is this kid's 5K?

EDIT: He runs 30-40miles/wk, cross trains with cycling, swimming, and calisthenics (core, single leg squats, push-ups, swiss ball work, balancing exercises, lunges + twist w/ 10lbs. plate). about 8-10hrs. training a week, 4-6hrs. running.

In addition, he missed three of his 400s last week (1:34) but his avg. pace was 5:58, should his next interval be the same, or add another rep if the session happens to go well for 10 reps?

Speculator Sam wrote:

The kid's preparing for a 4 MIiler is Sept. He's built up to a 30min. Tempo at 7:14min/mile; obviously holding back a little, since he's done 2min. increments over the weeks; His typical 20min Tempo is like 6:40 pace. He's doing his 5K time trial July 2nd., so he has 2 more tempos and one more interval session before then. He runs 30-40miles/wk, cross trains with cycling, swimming, and calisthenics (core, single leg squats, push-ups, swiss ball work, balancing exercises, lunges + twist w/ 10lbs. plate).

Also, when would you say it's time to start doing half-mile, mile, and mile-and-a-half repeats? Thanks for reading!

Not very fast. Uhhh 20:00.. at best.

How old is this person? Why are you making them run such slow 400s? Lotta work for a kid to be running that slowly to be honest.

His tempo runs appear much more challenging than the 400s. What is the reasoning for this?

He could run about 19:30 right now, he will run even faster by September.

I recall running a similar workout fartlek style, 14x400m in 87 (5:48 pace) avg with 200m easy jogging between each 400m. I remember being pretty much maxed out on this workout. A week later I ran 17:08 for 5K on a flat course.

I think your kid can go sub-18.

Like 19 I think. He can only run 30-40miles/wk since he's injury prone, hence the cross-training. He's got the heart, loves to run and will do anything he can. He's not super fast by any means, 64 is his best quarter to date. He was overweight all his childhood :(

I would guess 18:30 +/- 30 seconds on a flat course in good conditions.

Speculator Sam wrote:

Like 19 I think. He can only run 30-40miles/wk since he's injury prone, hence the cross-training. He's got the heart, loves to run and will do anything he can. He's not super fast by any means, 64 is his best quarter to date. He was overweight all his childhood :(

I'm not trying to bash the kid. I respect what you've said. But the interval session is practically worthless IMO.

Low mileage isn't the issue itself. The cross training is smart.

What is the goal?

At 6min./mile pace, his goal right now, it'll take him 24min. to run 4miles. My logic was to over-prepare with the tempo running, that way 24-25min. fast running won't feel as bad. During his 400s, he'll occasionally pop a 1:13-1:19 on his like 7th rep.

No faster than 20 min. Sounds like a workout I could do back when I ran ~5:50 for a mile and barely under 22 in 5k XC as a 14 year old.

Where is the long run?

Speculator Sam wrote:

At 6min./mile pace, his goal right now, it'll take him 24min. to run 4miles. My logic was to over-prepare with the tempo running, that way 24-25min. fast running won't feel as bad. During his 400s, he'll occasionally pop a 1:13-1:19 on his like 7th rep.

That's how you know they are a waste of time ...

(maybe like this whole thread 👃🏼👀)

I've seen plenty of "train for 5k" programs that call for intervals to be run at 5k race pace, but the volume is usually higher than 10x400.

~ 90 seconds seems slow to me for this especially if he's occasionally doing ~ 75 seconds on rep #7 (makes me thing reps 1-6 are way too easy).

Once a week on Mondays. He wants to build up to 13 miles. He did 12.5 a month ago. He mostly does 10-11miles so far.

He's building from only 8 reps, since he's new to speedwork.

He done 20:21 for 5K, it's been months and he's been doing lots more volume now since then. The kid used to do 20-30miles a week, and heavy lifting twice a week. His training more structured now too.

Speculator Sam wrote:

At 6min./mile pace, his goal right now, it'll take him 24min. to run 4miles. My logic was to over-prepare with the tempo running, that way 24-25min. fast running won't feel as bad. During his 400s, he'll occasionally pop a 1:13-1:19 on his like 7th rep.

Huh? He's running 89s then he drops a 73 on the 7th of 10? Is there a typo somewhere? Also, what's with the odd phrasing; I've never heard anyone give their 400 meter times in an interval workout in minutes per mile.

At any rate, I'd rather use the tempos as a guideline. 6:40 pace for 20 minutes as a tempo run suggests under 20 minutes for a 5k race if he's doing them at normal threshold pace. Given the young age and relatively low mileage, I would say that would be roughly 30 seconds slower than 5k race pace, which puts him in the low 19s (if the tempos are more like time trials he's going to be slower, if pretty easy, then faster).

If that's the case, the 400 pace seems about right, maybe a little slow because of the long recovery. I would do 85s instead of 89s or shorten the recovery to 200 meters.

it's not a kid, it's you. super obviousdon't be shy or embarrassed, just ask the question

Speculator Sam wrote:

The kid's preparing for a 4 MIiler is Sept. He's built up to a 30min. Tempo at 7:14min/mile; obviously holding back a little, since he's done 2min. increments over the weeks; His typical 20min Tempo is like 6:40 pace. He's doing his 5K time trial July 2nd., so he has 2 more tempos and one more interval session before then. He runs 30-40miles/wk, cross trains with cycling, swimming, and calisthenics (core, single leg squats, push-ups, swiss ball work, balancing exercises, lunges + twist w/ 10lbs. plate).

Also, when would you say it's time to start doing half-mile, mile, and mile-and-a-half repeats? Thanks for reading!

Keen eye :) For some reason, part of me was thinking I'd get more objective opinion if I said this kid instead of I. Ah well, ya live and learn right?

To the guy who stated the min./mile thing. The splits are like 1:22, 1:24, 1:28, 1:22, 1:22, not too consistent, but consistently under 90 secs, so that's where my min./mile phrasing comes from.

Well then youre probably capable of a lot faster than 5:57 pace if youre dropping 1:22s and 1:17s.

On another note, I would start heavy lifting again. Much more beneficial than swiss ball work