Trevor Graham kicked off track at NCSU

I find this post very interesting from two aspects. I ran some evenings at the NCSU track after 5 in the evenings for a couuple of years in the mid 1990s. It is a fine facility. We did some track work and other times did a medium distance run starting and finishing on the track. While I was there, I only saw a handful of joggers,/walkers around. For short periods of time there was a small group of serious and very competative amature women runners in their mid thirties who worked out together. Other than that, it was a very peaceful, quite and sometimes lonely venue. A great place to train!

The other thing that caught my attention is the reference to professional coaches opperating on their facility. For some time one of my pet peeves has been the personal trainers who frequent the parks in Santa Monica. They use public areas as their offices and training facilities to make their livings but give back nothing. They spread their training props and customers out on the grass block the way and forcing runners,joggers and walkers to go around them for an hour or two while they selfishly ply their trades. In my book, that takes some nerve!

Orville Atkins wrote:

For some time one of my pet peeves has been the personal trainers who frequent the parks in Santa Monica. They use public areas as their offices and training facilities to make their livings but give back nothing. They spread their training props and customers out on the grass block the way and forcing runners,joggers and walkers to go around them for an hour or two while they selfishly ply their trades. In my book, that takes some nerve!

Just out of curiosity, don't those people have the same right to use it as you?

George Webb wrote:

Just out of curiosity, don't those people have the same right to use it as you?

Not without a permit of some kind. They are running for-profity businesses, after all.

Good. A university should not associate itself with dopers, period. That goes for cj hunter too. "Strength Coach"? Are you kidding me?

http://gopack.collegesports.com/genrel/hunter_cj00.html

They certainly do have the same rights that I have. You miss the point. Do I have the right to set up my desk and side chairs on the grass area where public foot traffic flows and make a living? It seems to me that I would be impeding the rights of the rest of the general public to enjoy the use and beauty of the park for the personal trainer's own monetary gain. By the way, it is illegal to smoke in that park or on the beach nearby. We are getting away from the fact that Trevor Graham was forbidden from making a living on the NCSU campus with paying a fee.

What this argument should be focusing on is the right of local residents to use a facility that their tax dollars have paid for without having to pay a second time to use it. This is a serious issue regarding access to facilities all around the country. NCSU saying that he is impeding the PE classes using the track is an utter fabrication and a downright lie. If you look at the PE class schedules, you will find this to be the case at every school in the country.

For some reason, schools feel that they own the public facilities, when in fact they are only the caretakers for the people. Any state contitution will bear this to be a fact. These schools also would rather scare people away with outrageous fees and leave a facility complete unused, rather than come to a more reasonable fee structure that encourages the community to use the facilities they paid for.

How far do you go with "state payers use of facilities at a University."

Would I be able to go over and use the Chemistry Lab at NCSU, or maybe the dorm restroom and showers since I am a taxpayer?

of course not - use some common sense.

Not sure if you are correct on this point. How many non-revenue sports facilities at major state universities are paid for with tax money or public funds? My guess is, not that many. The indoor track / field house at my local college was partially paid for by a local hotel/motel tax (basically a tax on visitors to the area, not residents). The university agreed to allow local residents use of the facility during public hours for a very minimal fee. Public hours are earlymorning, noon hours and evening hours. Perfect for thsoe of us who work a regular shift job.

The same college is currently fundraising for several new athletic facilities with none of the money coming from tax money. All money is being generated through private donations. Will I, as a local resident, have access to the new soccer/track facility? Maybe. Is it my right? No.

Do you have any evidence that public money paid for NCSU's facility? Most major universities athletic departments generate their budget sepearte from that of the university. Making those facilities private not public.

did you ever think that maybe they do have that permit?

mjr wrote:

NCSU saying that he is impeding the PE classes using the track is an utter fabrication and a downright lie. If you look at the PE class schedules, you will find this to be the case at every school in the country.

For some reason, schools feel that they own the public facilities, when in fact they are only the caretakers for the people. Any state contitution will bear this to be a fact. These schools also would rather scare people away with outrageous fees and leave a facility complete unused, rather than come to a more reasonable fee structure that encourages the community to use the facilities they paid for.

First, no one in the Raleigh running scene would describe Paul Derr track as "underused." Every fat-ass power walker and roller blader in the city works out there. I have stepped in dog shit in lane one on numerous workouts.

Secondly, Graham's situation is still different from an unaffiliated training group using the track facility. Graham has profitted tremendously from the free use of a facility that exists (1) for the PE department (2) for the Athletic department and (3) for the students and staff of the university. Graham has never put money back into the facility. He does not pay for upkeep. He hasn't offered anything to NCSU. Couple that with his declining reputation in the business and you can see why Les Fowler is growing uncomfortable.

Third, and anyone who worked out on the track in the last ten years can validate, Graham and his "team" acted like the facility was theirs. They had this "we are olympians so stay out of lane three" attitude which was infuriating.

But the legislature determines budgets for those public facilities and the college must also do additional fundraising to pay for them as well. Since most universities are pretty cash strapped these days, they probably don't want to replace 400 meters and eight lanes of Mondo every five years thanks to masses walkers, joggers, kids on bikes, inline skaters, etc. Being a non-revenue sport, the college may only have budgetary plans for resurfacing once a decade.

Just because I want to play flag football with other taxpayers doesn't mean I can use the 60,000 seat stadium. I also cannot get a taxpayer game of H-O-R-S-E going in the arena.

Exactly. There are many facilities you cannot use even if you are a tuition paying student. Try doing strides on the nice soft grass in Carter-Finely sometime.

However, this is not the real issue. The basketball and football teams generate more 12 million dollars per year in ticket sales alone. Add to that fundraising - 17.6 million from the wolfpack club alone - and the ungodly large sums of money generated by tradmarking...

So MJR,how much do you REALLY think Lee Fowler cares about $250/day from some track coach? Do you think there are other issues at hand?

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ncst/genrel/auto_pdf/2003-04-annual-report.pdf

Good article.Time will tell what this is really all about.

Not to mention the Christian Rock concerts that use the track from time to time. What is up with that? Think they would give me a permit for my Slayer cover band?

>Most major universities athletic departments generate their budget sepearte from that of the university

This is what they want you to believe. The fact is that 95% of the athletic programs around the country are in the red and pull money from the general operating funds of the school (tax dollars) to stay afloat. I'm not opposed to reasonable user fees at all. Rarely are the fees reasonable, though. Schools (esp athletic depts) have a problem being a good community member, and have a misplaced ego problem thinking that they above the needs of the surrounding community. It is an elitism issue inherent in academia, and the athletic dept is the PR arm which is supposed to be reaching out to get people involved in campus-life. Providing facility use is one of those mandates, you will find it in every mission statement in any public university. Sadly, most fail miserably.

Aside, I believe the Graham group caused problems associated with elitism and ego from their end too. It comes with the sprinter-arrogance and I'm sure the Balco stuff is finally coming back to bite him in the ass.

True Dat!

raleigh runner wrote:

Third, and anyone who worked out on the track in the last ten years can validate, Graham and his "team" acted like the facility was theirs. They had this "we are olympians so stay out of lane three" attitude which was infuriating.

Those teams generate the millions, but what never appears in the reports is the game day operating expenses 9amongst others like travel and recruiting) for those 2 sports, which eats up 100% or more of the ticket sales and then dips in heavily to the fundraising money as well. The use of revenue/non-revenue sports is a bunch of Enron accounting bullshit. You can count the number of NCAA D1 programs that make a profit on your fingers.

I'm sure this is about Graham being a deek and wearing out his welcome by the bad PR of having a dozen druggies in his camp over the last decade, though.

Regardless of his so-called drug affliations and rumors. He's just trying to get runners to be good. It is a simplistic view really. Serious runners enjoying tough workouts on a nice track. It boosts NC State's rep, lets Raliegh be more well known. I think $250.00 per day is ridiculous. That right there was the punch to the face. Why not say, "Do not ever come back here." Not too many people could afford $250.00 per day to use a track! It happens though! I remember one time being chased off a series of soccer fields. I was doing workouts on the perimeter of the things that our college owned. I still got bitched at and never went back. I managed to finish the workout though!

Nick

mjr wrote:

Those teams generate the millions, but what never appears in the reports is the game day operating expenses 9amongst others like travel and recruiting) for those 2 sports, which eats up 100% or more of the ticket sales and then dips in heavily to the fundraising money as well. The use of revenue/non-revenue sports is a bunch of Enron accounting bullshit. You can count the number of NCAA D1 programs that make a profit on your fingers.

You also need to factor not only the ACC football and basketball money into the equation, but also money for BCS and NCAA basketball appearances, which is typically shared by all conference schools.

MJR, I have no problem with your beef as far as recreational/amateur athletes, and $250/day is absurd, but Trevor Graham is training full-fledged professional athletes, some of whom are millionaires. To bemoan their access to free training facilities isn't exactly pulling at my heart strings. And as mentioned by previous posters, just because elements of something are purchased with taxpayer money doesn't make it public domain. If that were true, I'd be driving an M-1 Tank home from work tonight!