Canaday rips Phil Maffetone's training philosophy

I found it very annoying. He can't keep his hands still.

If Canaday has all the answers that he is clearly trying to get us all to believe, he certainly isn't demonstrating it with his own running.

How much has he improved over the past 1/2 decade with his clever training philosophy?

gmc wrote:

If Canaday has all the answers that he is clearly trying to get us all to believe, he certainly isn't demonstrating it with his own running.

How much has he improved over the past 1/2 decade with his clever training philosophy?

Huh??? Well then Vigil, Daniels, Gags, et.al…..don't know shite either cause I can kick all their asses & I'm almost 60!

Maffetone lost credibility with me when I started hearing him talk about the heartrate stuff. The guy is out of touch-- Sage is right it doesn't work with anyone who's relatively fit and/or running higher mileage. It's too hard and in the gray zone (as Jack Daniels calls it).

I agree with gmc. Was just mentioning to my wife how he is on his own, a professional runner, dedicating his life to his running, living the dream, at altitude, and is 4+ min away from his personal best over the Marathon as a self-coached athlete. Not the best testament. He dedicated a lot of training to the Marathon. It's not that easy. 2:18 is no joke. Ask Max King. It is a legitimate effort. Right now the only MUTs that will be at the Trials are the following Elites of the Elites. There are many pretenders (Canaday, Varner, Tollefson, etc.) -

Max King, 2:17:32

David Laney, 2:17:02

Joe Gray, 1:03:42

Andy Wacker, 1:03:49

I don't think Gray and Wacker have run any trail ultra marathons?

Last I checked Sage finished ahead of King and Laney at Lake Sonoma and would likely beat them at North Face, Speedgoat, Rut, Transvulcania, Pikes Peak or pretty much any decent trail race with climbing. He also beat Gray and Wacker at a short mountain race up Pikes Peak. Different sport.

Gertard, you don't know what MUT means, right? Mountain, Ultra, Trail, and yes, Joe Gray has run a few "trail ultra marathons" as you position it. Dude almost took down Kilian Jornet.

a few degrees wrote:

Maffetone lost credibility with me when I started hearing him talk about the heartrate stuff. The guy is out of touch-- Sage is right it doesn't work with anyone who's relatively fit and/or running higher mileage. It's too hard and in the gray zone (as Jack Daniels calls it).

Heart rate training doesn't work for anyone who's relatively fit or running higher mileage? If only Paula Radcliffe had realised this she might have become a decent distance runner :/

pr100 wrote:

Heart rate training doesn't work for anyone who's relatively fit or running higher mileage? If only Paula Radcliffe had realised this she might have become a decent distance runner :/

No, that's not what I said. Maffetone's heartrate training approach doesn't work for relatively fit/high mileage runners because it's too high. That's the premise of this thread. I'm a big proponent of heartrate training, but as Sage points out some of us would be going at just under marathon pace if we tried Maffetone's approach-- not a pace I'd want to go at as an "easy run".

pr100 wrote:

a few degrees wrote:

Maffetone lost credibility with me when I started hearing him talk about the heartrate stuff. The guy is out of touch-- Sage is right it doesn't work with anyone who's relatively fit and/or running higher mileage. It's too hard and in the gray zone (as Jack Daniels calls it).

Heart rate training doesn't work for anyone who's relatively fit or running higher mileage? If only Paula Radcliffe had realised this she might have become a decent distance runner :/

Paula didn't use heart rate training.

gmc wrote:

If Canaday has all the answers that he is clearly trying to get us all to believe, he certainly isn't demonstrating it with his own running.

How much has he improved over the past 1/2 decade with his clever training philosophy?

WTF has his running credentials to do with his knowledge about training?

Idiot!

I agree completely. But since someone went down that road, has Maffetone coached anyone who has run as fast as Canady? I don't think so but am not sure.

Why is Sage so arrogant? Who has he coached that has achieved ANYTHING.Even his own performances are lackluster...he is SLOWER than he was before.And the shoes.....

twinkle toes wrote:

Good stuff! Couldn't agree more!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Thv76gG0E

Okay I'll bite.

First off, I took direct quotes out of Maffetone's 1:59 book and commented on them. Was I a bit critical? Yes! To me there is a problem with someone who thinks a sub 1:50 marathon is possible. (He also has been known to advocate putting butter in your coffee...but I digress). His examples of what a "maximum aerobic pace" for a sub 30min 10km runner and a sub 14min 5k runner were so ridiculous that I hope it was a typo.

As far as my own/running training goes...I've been coaching myself since February 2012 (so don't say "half a decade"). Aside from missing the Olympic Trials Standard in LA (and a couple disasters at ultras like UROC ) , I've actually been quite pleased with how things have turned out.

For those of you that ran at LA (or have run it) you'd know that it is not an easy course! The heat also slowed everyone down. Props to Jared Ward for an amazing run (and Max King as well as all the 6 other Americans that finished ahead of me in the US Champs). But do take into account that Max ran about 3 minutes slower than his PR (2:14 to 2:17) as did I pretty much (2:16:52 to 2:20:02). So I missed my PR by 3:10 on a hot day on a somewhat hilly course (not by 4+ minutes as someone posted above!). No excuses there, but I'm not sure a lot of people realize what the course/conditions were like.

That being said I've also discovered that it is a huge challenge to transition between 50-milers on the trails with 10,000' of climbing, to shorter mountain races like Pikes (13 miles only), to road marathons. The speed does not come back quickly for a runner like myself! All these events are totally different and so if you have not tried them all you probably would not understand..

For me, it's been very satisfying to win a race like Mt. WA in 58:26 (American record by over 30 seconds) and then go out and do something like White River 50-miler, or Speedgoat or some crazy technical SkyRunning race in Europe. Running an ultra on a track or road or treadmill would've been a much easier transition... but that's why I'm doing Comrades this year! These are all very different events on different surfaces and different distances and nobody has mastered them all.

There is a reason Killian Jornet won't run a road marathon and there is a reason why a total stud (who would clean my clock at any race distance 1 mile to 50km on a flat/road course) like Max King was 11th place at the 2013 TNF50-miler (As well as only 7th at Lake Sonoma last year and 4th at Speedgoat). There's a reason a guy like Zach Miller (31min+ 10km runner out of college) destroyed Rob Krar and I at Lake Sonoma last year and why a guy like Dakota Jones (who didn't even run in college and is still in his early 20s) gave me a run for my money at TNF50 this past Dec. What is the secret? What ties this very wide range of MUT Running events all together? IMHO: it's Running Economy on variable terrain. Take into account hills and elevation changes (hills/mountains), take into account sheer distance/duration (half marathon to 100 miles) and take into account the surface you are racing on (trail/off-trail, road/track). Specificity of training is key.

Okay, I've got to go post a new YouTube video now...

Nice reply. I hope you do Boston and you successfully qualify. The only thing I would really disagree on is that I doubt Killian's reasons for not running a road marathon are in any way based on if he thinks he could win one. That guy hates roads, and it's more a "philosophy of life" kind of thing. "Mountain people" need to believe that being in the mountains is some higher purpose. It's kind of like Ryan Hall talking about god. Don't get them started, don't expect them to be rational.

People have been critical of Lydiard's contradictory statements in his books for years yet it doesn't infer his principles are not sound.

I also don't agree with everything Dr. Maffetone says in his books, but I think he has a sound training philosophy that DOES work for some people that have the patience to try it. Like many training ideals, one needs to understand the entire approach before making sweeping conclusions.

Canaday, please do yourself a favor and exercise some professionalism when you're reviewing literature by those trying to make valid contributions to the sport.

I actually really like Lydiard, Pfitzinger and Daniel's philosophies. They are based on sound, scientific principles that have been tested over time and they have either coached great distance runners (or in Pfitzinger's case) were great distance runners themselves. Their track records speak volumes.I also apologize that my personal YouTube channel video is not up to snuff with your ideal of professionalism but you'll have to give me a specific example/evidence of what valid contribution(s) Maffetone has made to the sport? He is trying to sell books. That is the name of the game. No fault there, as we're all in sales in some regard, but I personally believe (and granted this is my opinion) that a lot of what he wrote in his "1:59" book is an actual disservice to the running community and has bits of false information/extrapolations IMHO. You already state that you: "...don't agree with everything Dr. Maffetone says in his books..." Again, I really don't mean to offend (most people really liked the video based on the 240+ thumbs up vs only 1 thumbs down so far after 5800 views)..

gmc wrote:

People have been critical of Lydiard's contradictory statements in his books for years yet it doesn't infer his principles are not sound.

I also don't agree with everything Dr. Maffetone says in his books, but I think he has a sound training philosophy that DOES work for some people that have the patience to try it. Like many training ideals, one needs to understand the entire approach before making sweeping conclusions.

Canaday, please do yourself a favor and exercise some professionalism when you're reviewing literature by those trying to make valid contributions to the sport.

Dude, please spend more time researching a method before you attack it, if you want any credibility. So many things you said in your video make it clear that you have a poor, and only partial understanding of what Maffetone recommends. First of many, he does recommend faster anaerobic training. Educate yourself please.

S. Canaday wrote:

as did I pretty much (2:16:52 to 2:20:02). So I missed my PR by 3:10 on a hot day on a somewhat hilly course (not by 4+ minutes as someone posted above!). No excuses there,

Um, isn't that what you just gave?