HS PAAVO Coaching system good or bad for long term development?!

The insight may incite you.

At the college I coach at we go out of our way to NOT recruit from PAAVO schools. Boys seem to do better but there is a near 100% chance that all girls from PAAVO teams have either an eating disorder, repeated stress fractures, or both. PAAVO done the way it is intended to be done is an unmitigated disaster.

Could you explain what exactly PAAVO is? And is your stance on PAAVO similar to other college coaches?

anon college coach wrote:

At the college I coach at we go out of our way to NOT recruit from PAAVO schools. Boys seem to do better but there is a near 100% chance that all girls from PAAVO teams have either an eating disorder, repeated stress fractures, or both. PAAVO done the way it is intended to be done is an unmitigated disaster.

I'm an old paavo kid myself, it's been 12 years since I graduated HS...I ran well in college and have watched several more do the same-both male and female. A fair share bonked out in college but it wasn't the majority.

It seems several top HS programs get criticized for "overworking" their kids regardless of what kind of system they run....it's a broken record. I'm not defending the PAAVO system as being perfect-because it's not. There are plenty of coaches in the NCAA system that will do better than a standard PAAVO regimen would, and plenty that sadly- just wont. It's hard to lay the blame.

Honestly, I don't see it slowing anyone down developmentally. Your kid will always be at a developmental disadvantage by the pure nature of the sport. By the time he/she's a senior he might finally be ready to contribute to his HS team in a big way- but most likely won't be worth a dime at a major NCAA school.

By the time he's a senior in College he'll be fighting internationals who have 3 physical years of training on him for the same points-which is almost always a losing battle. The best solution to the problem? Get to work. I have a hard time discouraging programs that increase a kids training age and teach them how to work hard in the process.

As a D1 coach:

Yes, It will impair him.

The training is unlike anything he will do at most programs so it makes transition to college hard. This is compounded by the indoctrination that PAAVO causes. PAAVO athletes are more likely to "rebel" and want to go back to what worked at the first sign of trouble.

There are very few guys and gals who make it out of PAAVO and improve a decent amount. Colby Lowe being one of them, but he was broken by the end.

Secondly, it will hamper your kid in recruitment. I don't really recruit PAAVO kids at all, and I know many other schools that don't. At the very least, they will low ball your kid because it's perceived as a higher risk.

My basic rule of thumb is that coaches who see a PAAVO kid run 4:12 treat him as if he's a 4:20 kid.

why coaches wrote:

There are very few guys and gals who make it out of PAAVO and improve a decent amount. Colby Lowe being one of them, but he was broken by the end.

Colby Lowe went all the way through high school on high mileage Paavo and the first time he got an injury was his senior year of college. I don't know who you coach but one injury in that amount of time is pretty good. By that time, it was probably the college training that took the toll on his body.

Any program that requires someone to actually train hard puts them at a risk of injury or burnout. You could make the same argument about any other program, just look at Fayetville Manlius or York Illinois. A majority of them don't turn out, but some do. Paavo just seems to be put in the spotlight because nobody actually understands what it is.

At the college I coach at we go out of our way to recruit from PAAVO schools. Boys seem to do better and there is a near 100% chance that all girls from PAAVO teams are successful and easily will adapt to college training. PAAVO done the way it is intended to be done is an unmitigated success.

Colby Lowe is a perfect example of what paavo does for you

southlake carroll, right?

Al-anon college coach wrote:

At the college I coach at we go out of our way to recruit from PAAVO schools. Boys seem to do better and there is a near 100% chance that all girls from PAAVO teams are successful and easily will adapt to college training. PAAVO done the way it is intended to be done is an unmitigated success.

0/10

We all know he goes to Southlake Caroll, you don't need to fluff it. If so, why leaving such a successful program? If your isn't #1 on the team anyways, he ain't going to be relevant in college anyway. Have him enjoy high school while it's still here.

BRB, I have to go to my weekly mile time trial

All Paavo is, is an individualized aerobic development program that is constantly evolving based on your current level of fitness. If anyone has ever studied lydiard to the T read his stuff, and knows Paavo thru and thru they are very similar, Paavo is just structured into a formula, however it is based on the individual. As far as the mileage goes... Most of the kids are doing 50-60mpw. Colb Lowe ran well In college because he had a good college coach, most people who go to college have sh*t coaches, Bc most college coaches are complete morons.

How can you transfer schools in Texas? Isn't your home in a specific school boundary?

Do college coaches go more off of what the HS coach says about the kid, the kid's times, or their own interviews and conversations with the kid?

I guess that is 3 questions.

As for your question, I think students can do well in HS off Paavo (obviously) and then go on to do well in College. But, I have seen where many are just kind of fried by the time they're done with HS. I think stepping in from time to time and have your child chill (if they're going off the rails a bit) would be something to be be open to and be discussed from the onset. Then again, if the coach does not want any parental involvement in the kid's running, then this could be an issue.

Thanks for all the responses. I do understand that maybe a lot of success in HS will be more worth it because of the team unity and discipline gained from following such a strict plan.

Some of the coaches I've met have similar feelings as the coaches on here regarding their concerns for losing scholarship opportunities and long term development for the quicker short term gains in HS. I guess at this point I need to see how the track season goes and talk to my son about his interest in seeking out a different approach that may fit better into long term development.

HS isn't all about sports, but with a family that is avid runners and the cost of College continually increasing I would rather my son progress at a more natural rate and peak in college/post college than as an 18 year old boy.

Done it wrote:

All Paavo is, is an individualized aerobic development program that is constantly evolving based on your current level of fitness. If anyone has ever studied lydiard to the T read his stuff, and knows Paavo thru and thru they are very similar, Paavo is just structured into a formula, however it is based on the individual. As far as the mileage goes... Most of the kids are doing 50-60mpw. Colb Lowe ran well In college because he had a good college coach, most people who go to college have sh*t coaches, Bc most college coaches are complete morons.

This isn't remotely true.

The difference between PAAVO and Lydiard is profound.

For example, the short PPM and long PPM essentially turn into time trials of death where runners go out hard and die in racing.

That's the opposite of what Lydiard proposed.

Again, you can defend it all you want. Say that no one understands. I'm just giving you the reality based on perception.

The vast majority of college coaches will downgrade your son's performances based on him doing PAAVO.

It makes sense. Recruiting is a risk. Why waste money on a kid with a lower perceived likelihood of succeeding.

I think that it works.

I ran at a PAAVO high school in a different part of the country than you. We drank the koolaid hard, went to the summer camps, etc. One of my assistant coaches hasn't taken a day off in 16 years. Some of our kids improved a lot and carry on a lifelong love of running (albeit usually not every single day).

I ran a few years ahead of some really good kids, and it seems like the kids who ran well and did a lot of mileage were the ones who burned out and were injured in college. We had the boys and girls state 3200m champions for our size. The girl was a Footlocker finalist but prone to stress fractures and didn't run fast or healthfully at her D1 school. The boy was more robust and ran well in college and it wasn't until a slip 'n' slide accident interrupted his training that he began to be injury prone. But a mid distance state finalist who always kept lower mileage has done really well at the D1 level.

It's all anecdotal but most of the people I ran with were very passionate about the sport. One of my teammates and I competed in the same athletic conference, got compartment syndrome, had the surgery, had the surgery again, and openly says that high school was too intense. For me, college was four years of improvement, but I was open to being coached. I slowed down on my easy days (CT pace is too damn fast), did 8x400 at mile pace with 1/4th the rest I was used to (slow intervals make no sense!), and took days off in the pool/gym before I got injured.

Could be Boerne Champion, the team that won NXN in 2007 I believe? These guys were in my district in HS and showed vast improvement from Freshmen to Seniors. As far as I could tell they were non existent in college. Went to A&M and UT and never improved upon their high school selves. But they won multiple HS state championships in track and cross including that amazing NXN title by a small town in South Texas. Another HS that did Paavo was Katy Seven Lakes I think?Colby is the one example I know of someone who improved much after doing Paavo in HS. His team mate who played second fiddle for years was CJ Brown and he went to A&M and stayed exactly the same as he was in high school. Also, they drink badger milk, not Kool-aid.

Master debater wrote:

We all know he goes to Southlake Caroll, you don't need to fluff it. If so, why leaving such a successful program? If your isn't #1 on the team anyways, he ain't going to be relevant in college anyway. Have him enjoy high school while it's still here.