2:45-2:50 Marathon on this Training Schedule?

That's a tougher schedule than what I did when I ran 34:53 / 1:21 / 2:52 a few years ago, and I felt like I was in 2:45-2:50 shape when I ran my first marathon of that year 2 months before the 2:52. It's probably a little early to tell how much more fitness gain you can reap in the next couple of months, but you are at least on track for a 2:48-2:50. I would probably reassess in early November if you want to go for 2:45-2:47.

I am sure you would like someone who isn't a regular of the road racing thread to chime in, so just think of this as a courtesy bump. :)

Thanks, Garbage. :)

I will definitely re-assess when I get to November. Just interested to see what others think.

I have a 2:40 PR but it took a while to get there and ran in the 2:45-2:50 range many times. There is a big difference in that 5 minutes. Given your PRs in marathon and half I would go out in the 2:48-2:50 pace through at least 20 and then see what happens if you feel good. If you aren't feeling good then try to hang on to a 2:50. If you are pick it up the last 10K.

Below are my thoughts. I am in similar spot as you basically...32 full time job wife two kids (5 and 2) and I ran about 235 at Boston Las year on 40-50mi a week. What I would say the key is is running as many miles at marathon pace as possible (within reason). When I was younger I ran 237 while other guys doing similar mileage and I thought talent ran faster 228-234 and after researching what I found was they were doing long runs with a real purpose. The following year I did that and dropped to 230.

So what I mean is when I am training now I will run ~5 days a week 3 days at about 6mi each saturday 8-10 and Sunday 15-23 (build up). After building up the long run a bit most weeks I also run marathon pace during. May start at 16-18mi run with 6-8 at marathon pace 7 warm up 8MP and 3 cool down and then every week I just add on up to 14-16mi at MP as part of a 22-24mi long run.

What I would say for you is lengthen LR and combine your MP run with the LR and then cut back the medium long run you were doing with the original MP run.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm 29 with a 3:09->2:57->2:40->2:33 marathon progression over the last 4 years.

My first comment is that your workouts indicate about 6:25-6:30/mi marathon potential right now (2:48-2:50), but improving that to ~6:15/mi (2:43-2:45) is completely reasonable progress in 2 months.

My second comment is that you're crazy if you want to go from 2 workouts per week to 3 workouts while also increasing mileage. Stop. Do not pass go. You get one weekday workout + a long run workout, you will not run well if you try to shoehorn a third in there. You may complete them but you will not make progress.

I like your weekly tempo progression, but I think you need to progress to 8 miles of tempo effort (i.e. 4x2 mile), and you haven't posted rest times but those should decrease as you become more fit. My last big workout before a marathon is always 10x1 mile T with 30s rest. (starting with 6x1 mile T with 60s rest).

Your long run should be 18-20 miles each week with tempo/mp/alternating. 15 with a 9 mile cutdown for instance is not enough of a stimulus for you, try instead 6E + 10M + 2E, or something like that. I don't have a lot of experience with the alternating tempo workouts, but if they work for you that's fine I would just add a couple more easy miles before/after.

Here were my last weeks before my 2:33:

-10 Weeks: 10 w/ 5K Race, 13 w/ 2x3 T

-9 Weeks: 12 w/ 5K Race, 8x1600T off 60s

-8 Weeks, 11 with 2x5K T, 22 with 5K T

-7 Weeks: 12 with 4 T, 15 Easy

-6 Weeks: 4x1600 T, 15 w/ 13 @ 6:00

-5 Weeks: 2x3 miles T, 25 Easy

-4 Weeks: 13 w/ 10 @ 5:55 M, 20 Easy

-3 Weeks: 10x1600 T off 30s (16), 23 Easy

-2 Weeks: no mid-week workout, Half marathon race + w/u c/d (16)

-1 Week: 13 Easy, 14.5 Eeasy

I know that I haven't broken 2:50 but let me chime in here for a second. I think it would be beneficial to fit a half marathon into your training plans 4-5 weeks out to help gauge your current level of fitness. Maybe instead of the 15 mi with 9 mi fast finish cutdown, you run a half marathon with a cutdown? Just a thought?

My guess is that you are in under 2:50 shape but at this point you'd want to go out in 2:50 pace through 20 in Philly and evaluate the situation at that point.

I like to think of marathons as constant progressions, so yes you can go for a 2:45 or 2:46 Home Run or you can play it safe and most likely run a sub 2:50, could end up being a 2:48 or 2:49.

But a half thrown into that schedule could be a great indicator of fitness for you and would allow you to change strategy ahead of time, just a thought.

Brent for the win!!!!!

You should be able to break 2:50. Philly is a little hilly. Not sure you would want to be aggressive on that course.

I would put some variation in the long runs with long tempos. You do not need to do them every week. Also, you should try to do some long runs where you try to hold a pace that is just a bit slower than MP for a long time to work on extending specific endurance. 25k at 6:30. 30k and 6:35. etc. See Canova's marathon training theory.

Also agree that 2 workouts a week is enough for the marathon. If you want to overachieve, do 8-12 hill repeats on a short steep hill as hard as you can safely run once a week. That can help keep glutes activated and stride from getting to shufflie.

Precious Roy wrote:

I would put some variation in the long runs with long tempos. You do not need to do them every week. Also, you should try to do some long runs where you try to hold a pace that is just a bit slower than MP for a long time to work on extending specific endurance. 25k at 6:30. 30k and 6:35. etc. See Canova's marathon training theory.

I agree with this. The first thing I noticed was you seem to be choosing shorter long runs and spending more time at MP or faster during those runs. You could extend your long runs to 20 miles and spend more time at slightly slower than MP.

Thanks all for the replies. At this point, I will see how training goes over the next several weeks and decide on a set goal/race plan, but right now I think what makes the most sense is to target 1:24ish for the first half of the race (the hilly half), and wait to make any major moves in pace until 30K. To address some points thus far:

BrentW - Thank you for your very detailed response. Much appreciated. I think you may have missed that I did do 3 workouts in Weeks 3, 5, and 7. I only skipped the third workout in Week 9 to be relatively fresh for the marathon simulator (run on the Philly RnR Half course, which shares part of the Philly marathon course). Otherwise I tend to alternate 2 workouts with 3 workouts every other week. I also did post my recoveries for the tempo intervals in terms of distance. I tend to jog the recoveries around 8:45/mi pace (2:10 or so for each 1/4mi).

While I do not disagree in principle with 18-20mi long runs, I agree with the Hansons that long runs should not really cover more than 25% of weekly mileage. Since most of my weeks are in the 60-70/mi week range, that usually gets me in the 15-17mi long run territory. If I was covering more total volume, I would up the long runs. But from my past experience (re: the stress fractures), 20mi+ longs usually spell disaster for a moderate mileage guy like me.

And I will politely disagree with you about the cutdowns. They look so easy on paper but are great for mental toughness - a component equally important to marathon training as the physical exertion. Think about it, the last 3mi of such a run are done sub-marathon pace down to ~HM pace 15mi into a run - not exactly a cakewalk. If you haven't tried them before, I encourage you to.

I do like your idea of playing around with tempo interval distances - in fact, I may swap out that last 10mi at MP for 2x4mi at 5-10secs/mi faster than MP, just to touch on variety.

Precious Roy - I think the moderate pace long runs (6:45-:55/mi) would fall safely into Canova's idea of building specific endurance (just :20-:30mi slower than goal pace). And I do extend the distance at which I am covering that pace every two weeks. But I will take you point into account and maybe see how 6:35-:40/mi feels for the last couple miles at the end of such runs. For example, when I did the 14mi moderate at the end of Week 7, my last mile was actually 6:31.

Thanks again, guys. I will revive this thread as I get closer and let you know how I do.

Hi Brent,

This is very interesting to see your breakdown, as I'm a shooting around 3 at Philly, similar albeit a little slower than the original poster.

Similar to the original poster, I was doing a Hansons style plan with long half marathon paced tempo intervals on Wednesday, 6 to 10 miles at MP on Friday, and a long run 18-23 on Sunday (last effort was 20 at 7:40, with the second half at 7:25 pace with a string of six miles at 7:15.

During this process I've been ramping up from a high of 55 last cycle to 65 so far and eventually 75. Is it a better idea to drop the second mid-week workout and extend tempo intervals from intervals totaling 6 miles to say 10?

Thanks!

The Stone Cutter: The pace on your cutdowns just seemed inappropriate for your fitness level. I agree that the workout can be intense and mentally prepare you for a race, but no more than a 10 miler at MP and I don't think training at paces between MP and HMP is all that beneficial.

With regard to mileage I'm coming from a Daniels/Pfitzinger background where I've had a lot of success so I've never given Hansons a serious look. If you're happy with the program and see results I'd trust the book over any advice I could give. But WRT long run mileage you're peaking at 75 mpw so I don't think 18-20 is a stretch, you'd be right around 25% of the mileage on your peak weeks and on lower mileage weeks your body is under less stress so I don't see a good reason to run a shorter long run.

Keep in mind your challenge is to run fast from 2:00 to 2:45, and I can't imagine doing that without several runs in the 2:30 range.

akkdkdk: I think 8 total miles of T intervals is appropriate for your mileage. 10 reps is a lot, and probably not safe unless you've built up to it or you're aerobically strong enough that the distance isn't a concern.

If you stay healthy, I can not see why your plan will not work.

OP, I'm in a very similar PR and life situation, though I think my marathon experience may be a bit deeper than yours. I'm 41 with a 2:48 PR and am targeting low 2:40s this fall. I think the big difference between us is that it sounds like you have tons more potential to get faster while I'm very close to the peak of where I'm going.

Keep in mind that, while you've given us some good intel, ultimately the feedback you receive here can only be directional in nature and may or may not suit you as a runner since we don't interact with you on a regular basis like a coach would. So take everything with a grain of salt.

With that said, I'm on board with Brent with much of his guidance. For me and the runners I coach, I put in at most 3 workouts every 10 days, and that includes the long runs. It's a common mistake for runners to work too hard during their race build up. What I do like about your workouts is that they're longer in nature. Though some seem to be run too fast. And I am definitely a fan of up to 10 MP miles in your long run as Brent mentions. I like the idea that you finish your long runs progresively faster. I think this gets you in the mindset to finish races strong. Just keep in mind that if you are running your long runs too fast you're not getting the intended benefit of the run.

I would also agree with Brent on the long run length. I know some plans out there have folks cutting it off at 16 miles, though I think if you do want to reach your max potential, a handful of longer runs will be necessary. I include 2 runs of 20+ miles into my schedules.

As for your history of injuries, I'm convinced that there are one (or a combination) of three items that lead stress fractures: poor nutrition, poor sleeping/recovery habits, and/or being too aggressive on ramping up mileage. It takes years to make a marathon runner. Each season you train, you can bump up the ceiling until you find your optimum distance. For a runner like you, 85+ miles seems to be where you would get the most benefit. Just be methodical about your build up. You'll find that the increased mileage will have a significant positive impact on your results.

Like you - Another very thoughtful, well-explained response. Much appreciated.

Like BrentW, I think you contribute a lot of valuable information. I would love to work up to 85-95 miles a week and find out my "true" potential for the marathon, but family obligations just don't really allow it. Time permits me to be a 6-70mpw guy (at my peak) and I am okay with that. So the question then becomes, if I am limited to that kind of mileage range, what's the BEST way to train to see my potential under those restrictions?

For me, I think it makes more sense to run relatively "easier" workouts more frequently than traditional, "harder" very long workouts. By getting in 5 workouts every 14 days, I am essentially doing the same total amount of quality that you and Brent are suggesting, but spreading out the way in which I do it, if that makes sense.

For example, every two weeks I hit 6mi worth of strength intervals twice, 8-10mi worth of ~MP twice, and 14-16mi worth of moderate long running once. So 12mi strength pace, 16-20mi MP, 14-16 miles moderate pace in total every 14 days. I bet if you and Brent looked at your two week cycles overall, you would probably be getting in almost the same amount of quality. I am just not lumping as much quality into each individual session that you guys are.

If I were doing longer, harder sessions I would definitely limit myself to two workouts per week and give myself extra recovery. But for now at least, the Hanson philosophy of "cumulative fatigue" seems to be working. The question is, will I still feel as strong 7 weeks from now as I do now? Time will tell, I guess.

As far as my injury history, I was definitely running my easy runs WAY too fast several years ago and not giving myself enough recovery. I was always trying to do too much, too soon. Knock wood, I have stayed consistently healthy for about 2 years and I am trying to be much more methodical about my training. Again, much appreciation to the insight given thus far.

akkdkdk wrote:

Hi Brent,

This is very interesting to see your breakdown, as I'm a shooting around 3 at Philly, similar albeit a little slower than the original poster.

Similar to the original poster, I was doing a Hansons style plan with long half marathon paced tempo intervals on Wednesday, 6 to 10 miles at MP on Friday, and a long run 18-23 on Sunday (last effort was 20 at 7:40, with the second half at 7:25 pace with a string of six miles at 7:15.

During this process I've been ramping up from a high of 55 last cycle to 65 so far and eventually 75. Is it a better idea to drop the second mid-week workout and extend tempo intervals from intervals totaling 6 miles to say 10?

Thanks!

I'm also shooting for around 3 at Philly and have been doing somewhat similar training to you (last long run 20, was @ 7:37/mile with that string of 7:15's towards the end) with a speed workout on Wed and and one faster paced run per week.

Starting this week I'm doing a new plan which has me going for ex 14 miles today with the last 10 being @ MP and with one either 5K like race or a 5-6 mile tempo @ half MP as the 2nd hard effort a week with an easier long run on Sundays.

To answer your question, I like having the 2 different types of workouts in the weekly plan as it gives some variety to the training. I think maybe as the race gets closer you cut one out to try to get the legs fresher?

I kind of like Hanson's plan like Stone Cutter as I'm just not a high mileage type of runner but I'm going to give this more hybrid plan a try.

I'll say this as I see a lot of good debate in this thread, I think there is more than one way to execute a successful marathon training plan and as long as you put in the work and truly mentally believe that you are in good shape, there's a pretty good chance that you'll experience some success on race day.

The Stone Cutter knows his stuff, he basically was the reason I PRed in Philly last year so I read his postings very seriously. I'm actually interested in this varying tempo intervals now as I've never tried that before.

Best of luck on your shot at sub 3!

I just ran a 1:25:38 half this weekend. It was about a minute and ten second PR. Moderate course at about 400 ft. in gain. I took it a little easy in preparation this week (no workouts, 45 miles over 5 days) and I'll go back to 65 - 70 -70 -75 -75 then taper.

Based on this half is it fair to say a sub 3 is no longer a crazy goal? Say 2:58 high to 2:59 high.

Pretty similar schedule to when I ran 2:44. I think you're there.

OP, here. Bumping this thread to give an update. I took some of the advice of Brent W and Like you and adjusted the workout schedule over the last six weeks.

Here’s what I ended up doing:

Week 11 (70 mi): 6x1mi (6:09/avg) w/.25mi jogs; 12mi w/8mi MP tempo (6:24/avg); 16.5mi w/14mi moderate (6:48/mi)

Week 12 (62 mi): 4x1.5mi (6:10/mi) w/.5mi jogs; 15.5mi (5.5E, 9@6:24, 1E)

Week 13 (65 mi): 3x2mi (6:11/mi) w/.5mi jogs; 14mi w/9mi alternating tempo miles (6:07/6:36); 18mi (8@7:57, 4@6:55, 3@6:39, 3@6:20)

Week 14 (64 mi): 2x3mi (6:13/mi) w/1mi jog; 18mi (9@7:31, 9@6:21)

Week 15 (72.5 mi): 3x2mi (6:09/mi) w/.5mi jogs; 20mi (6E, 5@7:09, 8@6:59, 1E)

Week 16 (60.5 mi): 6x1mi (6:06/mi) w/.25mi jogs; 16mi w/10mi MP tempo (6:25/avg)

Here is what I have planned from now until the race:

Week 17 (54 mi): 8-10 x .25mi hill (:85) w/jog down recoveries; 14mi including 2x4mi (6:25-30, 6:20-:25) w/1mi jog

Week 18 (51 mi): Philly Marathon

After having the usual aches and pains that come from marathon training, I am feeling really good right now. Both of this past week's workouts were very controlled. I did the MP tempo on the last 10 miles of the Philly Course, easing into the effort and then locking in (6:37 32 27 22 22 18 23 22 22 22).

My main goal is still to break 2:50. I am feeling a little more confident about 2:48 then I was six weeks ago. As such the plan is to run the first 3 miles easy (6:40 35 30), try to run ~6:25 from mile 4 to mile 20, and then see if I can dip under 6:20s the last 10k. All of this, of course, assuming good weather conditions.

Any thoughts? Much obliged.