"Quality" work (VO2Max) not working so well

I suspect iron deficiency. Have her get a blood test. Her serum ferritin should be above 60. If it's not, supplement with iron.

Yes. There are dozens of athletes like that out there. Me included.

Proponents of V02 work will tell you to keep hammering away because athletes "have" to do this type of work. It's in the rules.

Van Aaken method for her all the way. There are threads on here pertaining to "no interval work" success. Check them out.

How long are the "long" repeats that you speak of?

Why not just stick with the training that benefits her the most? Maybe have her do tempo effort runs when the rest of the team is doing VO2 max type stuff.

A tough time of life for many young female runners and often an nutritional problem is the cause. However, it needs to be a doctor (as a result of a blood test) who suggests any supplements, not a coach.

So stop doing the VO2 max work you clown. Clearly they aren't working, and clearly the high end aerobic stuff + short fast repeats works a lot better. Sheesh. The last thing kids need is VO2 max work anyways...they get that enough with their races.

Lot's of good stuff here, thanks for all the responses.

Fe_Man and jtuppered- Our understanding is Ferritin is in the 30's and told diet is good. Agree, that should be left for Dr.

Straw - Not familiar with Van Aeken, will check it out.

Hank Moody - Mile repeats, 5 at 5K pace with 2:30 rest.

Coach C and asdfasd - I am not the coach (part time assistant) but I am here to help out the coach and will discuss with him. I like the Tempo approach.

Mandu wrote:

Lot's of good stuff here, thanks for all the responses.

Fe_Man and jtuppered- Our understanding is Ferritin is in the 30's and told diet is good. Agree, that should be left for Dr.

Straw - Not familiar with Van Aeken, will check it out.

Hank Moody - Mile repeats, 5 at 5K pace with 2:30 rest.

Coach C and asdfasd - I am not the coach (part time assistant) but I am here to help out the coach and will discuss with him. I like the Tempo approach.

5 x mile at 5k pace is insane. It's no wonder your girl is crapped out. 5 x 1000m would be more like it.

wtf coach? wrote:

5 x mile at 5k pace is insane.

No it's not.

wtf coach? wrote:

5 x 1000m would be more like it.

That is a very easy workout

wtf coach? wrote:

5 x mile at 5k pace is insane.

fan of US distance running wrote:

No it's not.

Yes it is. Ridiculously insane. Why on Earth would the OP insist on giving this workout to his runner?

Mandu wrote:

Lot's of good stuff here, thanks for all the responses.

Fe_Man and jtuppered- Our understanding is Ferritin is in the 30's and told diet is good. Agree, that should be left for Dr.

Straw - Not familiar with Van Aeken, will check it out.

Hank Moody - Mile repeats, 5 at 5K pace with 2:30 rest.

Coach C and asdfasd - I am not the coach (part time assistant) but I am here to help out the coach and will discuss with him. I like the Tempo approach.

This is almost exactly what I figured was happening. I'm not sure why this is so common, but lots of high school coaches do it. Unless her last name is Cain or Effraimson that's too long of a rep to count as Vo2.

Run k's or even 800's. She'll look way better.

Getting someone to run 8km at 5km pace doesn't sound sensible, and the path to burnout rather than improvement.

fan of US distance running wrote:

wtf coach? wrote:

5 x mile at 5k pace is insane.

No it's not.

wtf coach? wrote:

5 x 1000m would be more like it.

That is a very easy workout

Very easy...no, not if done right. But hey, guess what, it's not supposed to be that hard. 5xmile for a female is unlikely to be VO2 work and more than anything that's a lot of volume for a HS girl. This is high school right, whoops..guess I should read more closely.

5xmile at this time of the year is something college mens squad are doing this time of the year. Hell, I bet most are doing them around 8k/10k pace too...but that's just a guess. Take what I right with a grain of salt, much smarter people on here than I. Hell of a lot dumber too though.

Get rid of all the long intervals at V02 max pace immdiately.

It destroys endurance when done to often, to long. It should be used for race sharpening for just a few weeks. Replace it with intervals/fartleks at (sub)threshold intensity. If there's a race once per week, otherwise two times per week.You can ad some shorter work at race pace on these days.

eg.

3x 1600 in 6:45+ 4x 200 in 40 sec/ 200 jog

1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2-1 fartlek + 6 strides

30 min cut down tempo: 10 min at 7:15- 10 min at 7:00- 10 min at 6:45+ 2x 400 in 85 sec/400 jog

You don't say what kind of mileage she does. My guess is, for the two years she's been running, is low. Without having a period of just building up a base which most high schooler don't have time for, doing a workout like that is just too much. They literally don't have the base to do it. It probably feels like doing 5x MILE RACES to her. No wonder she breaks down. She has never been built up to handle workouts that stressful.

you're making a mistake in the approach. her true VO2max pace is ~1600m pace. throw the Daniels stuff out, this isn't a 35y/o jogger.

her cruising speed is already good, the longer work is therefore of limited benefit unless very carefully limited (outdated formulas go out the window).

moreover you have racing on top of this now and let me guess, she goes pretty deep into the well, races hard. and shows solid stamina on relatively low mileage?

her limitation is speed side, attack at something closer to 1600m pace and she will come around provided you don't crack the whip on this kid. 300m reps or possibly 400 to 600 one you get her progressing again.

I have coached a young female who responded well to max velocity-800m work and then 10k-Threshold work. Everything in between wore her out. I would let 3k and 5k races take the place of 3k-5k workouts. After not running any workouts at 5k pace she dropped down to 17:44 in the 5k after running 18:15 the year before and doing 3k-5k workouts.

If something does not work for someone, just don't do it. Training theory is just that, theory. Not everything works for everyone.

5X1mile. There is your problem. Step back, put her on a standard 6x800 routine and reassess.

More good stuff, thank you all for helping.

Yes, mileage is relatively low 35-38 MPW, head coach believes in more quality than quantity

She seems to enjoy and do well with longish progression runs of about an hour - start easy and finish comfortably strong.

During track season this was not much of a problem since most of her work was 800m type preparation. Just eats up 200-300 meter repeats.

I'm honored that Malmo chimed in. I now have some cred when I discuss with coach.