Ultra marathon training - Mr Renato Canova

I hope Renato is able to post on this thread. I know he has mentioned that he wrote training programs for Mario Fattore (ITA), former World 100km champion.

He stated that ultra training is much simpler than training for a marathon because you only need one fuel source and need to maximize your max aerobic lipidic power. Basically, you need to build the mind and body to sustain 7-10hrs of running and then alternate with weeks of "marathon-like" distance and work.

That was my understanding of his training, but I'd love to hear his thoughts on this specifically with a schedule from Fattore. Fordyce trained like a 10K guy with long runs (lots of intensity), but I wonder what a new generation could do with intelligent Canova-based training.

Bump

The old school legends like Bruce, Hoss and Bobby De La Motte used to basically do marathon training but start to bump their long runs up to 60 - 65km.

Granted that marathon training back then was never really as intense as today's top guys. So lots of long steady miles and hit up RAC every Tuesday and crank out a 26min time trial.

Oh yeah. It helped if you acted like a wanker at the time trials like I used to.

Would be interesting to see what Mr Canova could add to this.

I manage a pro running team here in South Africa that actually has a very good pedigree in the Comrades with numerous victories in both the mens and womens race. Alot of my guys do marathon training but speedwork is longer and long runs of up to 65km (some go 70km) at all different paces

Cuan South Africa wrote:

Would be interesting to see what Mr Canova could add to this.

I manage a pro running team here in South Africa that actually has a very good pedigree in the Comrades with numerous victories in both the mens and womens race. Alot of my guys do marathon training but speedwork is longer and long runs of up to 65km (some go 70km) at all different paces

What would it take to put a Vet om the Mr. Price Team? Do you have a Vet Team? I need to head back home and run the 'Rades. If I do, my plan would be to be in the 6:25 - 30 range

Oh it would be very interesting to hear Renato's thoughts on training for 100k type events. Hope he pops on at some point.

I watched a documentary on Badwater the other night and I was surprised at how many of the 100 people the run it said they dont really "train".

Most looked like folks that would be in the far far back of the pack at a local road race, yet they go an run 130 miles in the worst conditions possible.

I did Badwater a few years back, and I believe that (as is the case with many 100-mile trail races) most people do a fair amount of walking. Very few (if any) are running anywhere near the full 135 miles. That doesn't mean all the walking makes it easy. Just walking 135 miles on that course would be wicked. Just my two cents.

think badwater and even races like Leadville are a little different to the Rades. The front guys are averaging like 5:50 - 6:00/mile pace for the 56 miles.

Hi Mark

We dont have a vets 'team' as such but we do have some vets in the team

There are many vets that are finishing in the golds now. It would be awesome to see you running Comrades again. I think the Nedbank team do have a vets team that they also focus on but I could be mistaken

Where do you live now?

Cuan South Africa wrote:

Hi Mark

We dont have a vets 'team' as such but we do have some vets in the team

There are many vets that are finishing in the golds now. It would be awesome to see you running Comrades again. I think the Nedbank team do have a vets team that they also focus on but I could be mistaken

Where do you live now?

I live in the USA, but I still have family in JHB. I have not actually run Comrades. I feel that as someone who got there start in running in South Africa (hell I ran for RAC at the time when Bruce, Page, De La Motte were all around) It is almost mandatory that I go back to race the Comrades. I am aiming for a sub 2:33 marathon in 2014 and was thinking about Comrades in 2015. If I can get to the sub 2:33 marathon, I feel that would give me a shot at 6:20-30 Comrades

I was going to add to my above post but I screwed it up.

One of my best memories was at a half marathon in Pretoria when I was encouraged by and ran with one of your top guys (Ludwick Mamabolo) uncle or cousin the Great Titus Mamabolo.

Id be intersted to see a more advanced ultra training plan. Everything i am finding online is very low volume and intensity.

Np1112 wrote:

Id be intersted to see a more advanced ultra training plan. Everything i am finding online is very low volume and intensity.

I second this request.

TLW wrote:

Np1112 wrote:

Id be intersted to see a more advanced ultra training plan. Everything i am finding online is very low volume and intensity.

I second this request.

If you've ever heard of Michael Arnstein, he's that guy who only eats fruits and vegies which is a little weird. But he regularly does 180-210 mpw during hard training for months at a time and rest of the year runs around 2 thirds of that when not preparing for any upcoming races. Basically during the week he usually runs to work (15.5 miles away) then runs back home after work. So 31 miles Mon-Fri during hard training then he might do a race on the weekend and a 10 mile run the other day or a 20 mile run one day and 10 the other or a 30 long run and a 10 easy run Sunday. Just simple stuff like that. Then for speed he does mile repeats when training for marathons and stuff. When training for 100k and longer he just runs LSD.

I don't anything about ultra running besides Arnstein, so he's all I got to go off of. So maybe that helped.

Thats a little much for me haha. Was thinking more of the 100-120 max range. I just dont know what do to for the long runs.

[quote]Np1112 wrote:

Thats a little much for me haha. Was thinking more of the 100-120 max range. I just dont know what do to for the long runs.[/quote

Well, I saw the log of a less accomplished ultra runner than Arnstein once. Some Irish guy I believe, he got top 5 or top 10 at world 100km champs a couple years ago I believe. Basically at the time, where he lived he had a 7 mile loop and a 10 mile loop. Mon-Fri he either did 7 or 10 for each run to get 14 or 17 miles and if we has going to be busy in the afternoon did both loops in the morning for a 17 mile run. He didn't do speed work. He ran how he felt. Most runs 650-710 pace for those Mon-Fri runs. Then on Saturday and Sunday he'd drive out to the hills or mountains. Far away from ultra races he'd just do a hilly 20 mile run Saturday and 7 or 10 mile run Sunday. Closer to races on weekends he'd either do:

1) mega long run in the mountains like 40-50 miles on Saturday at like 9-10 pace because it was in the mountains and technical trail then Sunday a 14-20 mile run from home using his 7 and 10 mile loops for 14 17 or 20 miles.

2) or he'd do 25-35 miles on flat terrain or moderate hills at a good pace (sub 7) on Saturday and Sunday come back for another long run but shorter so like 20 miles unless feeling bad in which case just a 7-10 mile run that Sunday.

The general idea is you run a lot 14-17 miles a day Mon-Fri, then a 20 mile run Saturday and 7-10 mile run Sunday until getting close to main ultra(say 2-3 months out) start doing back to back long runs on the weekend sometimes super hilly super long all day mountain runs or a little quicker flat terrain long run of 25-35 miles.

So maybe for you get 2 loops around your house, about 7 and 10 miles. do 14-17 a day Mon-Fri(how much and what order depends on how you feel) and a long run Saturday as described above and rest on Sunday. That gets you your mileage.

Np1112 wrote:

Thats a little much for me haha. Was thinking more of the 100-120 max range. I just dont know what do to for the long runs.

What little you can find out there, I am leaning towards a solid marathon type build, but extending long runs out to 45mi.

Maybe something like how you would structure your marathon around 100mi weeks. Every 2nd or 3rd week in the last 8-12wks stretch that long run out until 40-45mi.

Maybe a Tinman approach with 2 stress days in a week and the rest just easy. Midweek do something like 15-18 miles with about 10-12mi at MP (broken or continuous) and then your 2nd stress day would be going 35+ miles

Those last 2 posts look more doable. I live in central Indiana so finding the hills tough. I have thought about going to the gym and cranking the incline on the treadmill. But still getting trails runs in to get used to footing.

My last few weeks have been 109mi. 9mi tempo mid week, 23 sat, 15 sun. Then 5mi tempo, marathon sat, 15 sun. And this week is 6mi tempo, and thinking two 20 milers sat/sun. Then a down week.

All new to me. I will prob do a ~30 miler in a month or so. I found a 40mi relay event 5 weeks before my 50miler that i will see how everything fits together.

What do you think of the mid week 6-9mi tempo with weekend long days? Should i alternate back 2 back weekends with a LONG run the next weekend only?

Np1112 wrote:

Those last 2 posts look more doable. I live in central Indiana so finding the hills tough. I have thought about going to the gym and cranking the incline on the treadmill. But still getting trails runs in to get used to footing.

My last few weeks have been 109mi. 9mi tempo mid week, 23 sat, 15 sun. Then 5mi tempo, marathon sat, 15 sun. And this week is 6mi tempo, and thinking two 20 milers sat/sun. Then a down week.

All new to me. I will prob do a ~30 miler in a month or so. I found a 40mi relay event 5 weeks before my 50miler that i will see how everything fits together.

What do you think of the mid week 6-9mi tempo with weekend long days? Should i alternate back 2 back weekends with a LONG run the next weekend only?

I like the midweek tempo. When you say tempo are we talking like current marathon pace for 9mi or is it faster than that? I think if it is marathon pace or a bit slower then try to go for around an hour. If it is faster, so closer to Threshold type pace then go closer to 35min.

The long runs. I like the idea of alternating back 2 back with a Loong run. Although once up there at like 28 - 30mi+ I would not do those weekly. I think do the single big run every couple weeks till you get it up at 40mi. (I mentioned 45 above but that was in ref to Comrades which is a 56mi race. Not sure you need a 45 if the race is 50mi)

Maybe Cuan can tell us what Ludwick Mamabolo and his other guys are doing.