5000m World Record Splits: A Progression

rekrunner wrote:

I would say, we can't tell because of steroids. This isn't that hard. Zaripova would be a great example of a slightly different discussion about doping effectiveness, rather than EPO effectiveness.

And in Zaripova's case you have the proof of the confirmed positive for turinabol which would merit the discussion of which PED was more effective from an endurance perspective. However, you're obfuscating on the confirmed cases of O2-vector doping with high achieving female runners with no proof of androgen usage. There are many good examples with top females and these are just a few:

1) Ceplak - 18th fastest all-time 800/EPO positive (no proof of androgens).

2) Stephanie Graf - 157th fastest all-time 800 & silver x2 (Olympics/WC), implicated in an organized blood doping operation (no proof of androgens):

3) Shobukhova - held 2nd fastest marathon all-time behind Radcliff/sanctioned for hematological anomalies (no proof of androgens).

In fact, Shobukhova's case was so egregious that one expert considered her Hgb to be so high it constituted a "medical emergency" ("likely doping?" ?).

"The ABP expert panel concluded that the athlete’s abnormal profile was likely the result

of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with

“massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion

strategy. One expert considered that two of the athlete’s hemoglobin values obtained in

October 2009 and October 2011, in strict correlation with the Chicago Marathon, which

Ms. Shobukhova won both years on 11 October 2009 and 09 October 2011, respectively,

were so high that they should be considered a medical emergency."

If you don't remove the uncertainty, then the uncertainty remains. If you want to go down the "evidence" route, her ban started 1 1/2 years after her PB, and her DQ'd races started 4 months after her marathon PB. So no evidence her PB was not clean. In fact, it looks like her performances started to decline the fall of 2012, and all of 2013, suggesting blood doping made her worse, or her worse performances triggered the search for external support. Her PB places her top-80, just behind Desi Linden, with a time more than 4 minutes slower than Ndereba and 7 minutes slower than Paula.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

If you want to argue that EPO is effective for women, it is simply incorrect to argue with women who have taken steroids as examples. This includes Chinese women, like "the case of one of the top Chinese marathoners, Wang Jiali".

Jiali was sanctioned for hematological anomalies - no evidence of any steroid usage in the case against her.

well guess what im back. i dont know who is prancing around with the attitude that they can ban anyone they want, just had them emails with the brojos and they said no one has that authority...so someone is lying.

well i was told i was to be civil...but im sure no one else on here has to. im sure there will be offensive comments and threads, im sure multiple people will be insulted for not agreeing with jim ryuns 3'24, and nothing will happen to that offensive person.

there will be others who accuse people of doping and others defending them, with insults flying and nothing will happen.

but im sure as the sun will rise, renato, vent, rekrunner and im sure a few others will be fast to cry and complain to get me banned as soon as they possibly can.

but for now im back

oh and somehow my handle now belongs to a registered user? go figure

m!ndweak wrote:

im sure multiple people will be insulted for not agreeing with jim ryuns 3'24, and nothing will happen to that offensive person.

There is an unwritten rule here that if you post about the late 1960s and you point out that the era was dripping with PEDs and you were more manly if you took steriods, which were then legal. And everybody admitted to taking them. Somehow your post magically disappears.

rekrunner wrote:

Quite simply, if you want to show EPO effectiveness, you have to show the effect, and ultimately that EPO reasonably caused a significant part of that effect.

And for the upteenth time there are no studies with elites. There aren't even any studies with non-elites using a combination of different PEDs with EPO. So, absent studies with elites I think it's reasonable to examine anecdotal & empirical evidence with known, proven cases of EPO and/or blood doping with athletes. You certainly can't arbitrarily rule out EPO as a contributing factor to their performance improvement & achievements like you consistently do. If that was the case why would WADA ban/sanction the athlete if EPO or blood doping had no effect on their performance? In addition, why wouldn't WADA remove EPO/blood doping practices from the ban list to the watch status. And are you aware at one time that blood transfusions were completely legal? What changed with blood transfusions? Why did WADA ban the practice if it's not performance enhancing and therefore presents no unfair advantage? Did you also know EPO was legal for a few years before being placed on a ban list?

Food for thought....

By the same token, we cannot arbitrarily rule out all other factors except EPO from these anecdotes. WADA bans drugs and methods, based on a "potential" to enhance performance (and/or other reasons), not burdening themselves with actually proving performance enhancement for all athletes for all events.

I guess it's simply a question of degree -- number of people you offend enough to "report" it. You were simply more offensive to more people. BTW, I recall ventolin/calculo has been banned in the past for his lack of bedside manner. In any case, I've never reported your posts, but prefer to let them speak for themselves, for your character, for your intellect, as-is, and prefer that you develop your own capacity to police yourself. I do not wish to burden the moderators of an understaffed site.

rekrunner wrote:

If you don't remove the uncertainty, then the uncertainty remains.

If you want to go down the "evidence" route, her ban started 1 1/2 years after her PB, and her DQ'd races started 4 months after her marathon PB.

So no evidence her PB was not clean. In fact, it looks like her performances started to decline the fall of 2012, and all of 2013, suggesting blood doping made her worse, or her worse performances triggered the search for external support.

Her PB places her top-80, just behind Desi Linden, with a time more than 4 minutes slower than Ndereba and 7 minutes slower than Paula.

Are we talking about the same runner here; "Wang Jaili?" If so, the date of the infraction/announcement was in May 2012 two months "after" she ran her PB of 2:22, which was a ~2.8% improvement from her previous best of 2:26 just a year earlier (2011). Her 2 yr ineligiblility period ran from 2013 to 2015. Her first marathon back from the ban was in 2015 at 2:33, followed by 2:41 in 2016 and 2:33 again in 2017 - a far cry from her pre-ban PB of 2:22. She also had that huge ~9% improvement from 07 to 08, which was in the pre-ABP time period.

Yes the same Wang Jaili. You wanted to play the "no evidence" game. If we take your date of 29 May 2012, this represents the start of her anomalous ABP. So "no evidence" of anomalous blood on 17 March 2012, two months earlier. Her first banned race I found was the Olympic Marathon, in 5 August 2012 -- this is what I said was 4 months. With anomalous blood, she ran much slower, a 2:35:46, losing in a race that was won in 2:23:07, and 13 minutes slower than her PB. With anomalous blood, she ran 9.2% slower than her PB only four months earlier, and about the same as her post ban times. So, looking at the evidence, doping made her slower.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

"Wang Jaili?" she ran her PB of 2:22, which was a ~2.8% improvement from her previous best of 2:26 just a year earlier (2011). Her 2 yr ineligiblility period ran from 2013 to 2015. Her first marathon back from the ban was in 2015 at 2:33,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

Wow, 11/153 = 7.19% wow, Holy smokes Batman, say it ain't so. Because clearly EPO doesn't work for the marathon.

dont worry i have a change of heart, after being banned for my part of being uncivil in this war against EPO, i now know that EPO doesnt work! and jim ryun did in fact run 3'24.

thanks mods for showing me the light

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

[quote]High-Octane Dopers wrote:

Wow, 11/153 = 7.19% wow, Holy smokes Batman, say it ain't so. Because clearly EPO doesn't work for the marathon.

Weren't the Chinese experimenting with the same aerodynamic bun huggers that the Russians were using during that time frame? ?

rekrunner wrote:

Yes the same Wang Jaili. You wanted to play the "no evidence" game.

If we take your date of 29 May 2012, this represents the start of her anomalous ABP.

So "no evidence" of anomalous blood on 17 March 2012, two months earlier.

Her first banned race I found was the Olympic Marathon, in 5 August 2012 -- this is what I said was 4 months.

With anomalous blood, she ran much slower, a 2:35:46, losing in a race that was won in 2:23:07, and 13 minutes slower than her PB.

With anomalous blood, she ran 9.2% slower than her PB only four months earlier, and about the same as her post ban times.

So, looking at the evidence, doping made her slower.

The May 29, 2012 was the date she would have been notified of the ABP anomalies and that a sanction would not be brought until she had been given the opportunity to provide an explanation for the alleged abnormalities (IAAF Rule 32.2 (b) – Athlete Biological Passport). And there would have been a longitudinal profile prior to that date. She might have gotten spooked to tone it down from the notification and/or any increased target testing. And she apparently was permitted to compete during the investigation, hence London where she already had the "A" standard. And, btw, her London results (2:35/58th) were not annulled. You can check all three sites; Wikipedia, Flotrack & the official Olympic site where her 58th place finish is listed - and not any disqualification. Her 2 yr ban went into effect from Feb/2013 thru Feb/2015.

Maybe, if you say so. Maybe not. If her longitudinal ABP profile was anomalous prior to 29 May, they would have reason, and the rules, to annul prior results during the whole period of the anomalous profile, prior to the 2-year ban. The time between 29-May and 5-Aug would be quite short to build up an anomalous longitudinal profile, yet at the same time completely lose all the benefit. If I look at ARRS website, I see her results after Aug 2012, including her Olympic marathon, are DQ'd, while her 29 Apr 2012 result was not. At the IAAF website the progression graph does not include her 2012 Olympic marathon. If I look at the official Olympic results, there is a disclaimer: "Please note that because a number of anti-doping rules violations procedures are still in progress – including procedures involving medalists further to the results of the retesting programmes carried out on the samples collected in Beijing 2008 and London 2012- the information contained in the list is not final"http://more.arrs.net/runner/11439https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/pr-of-china/jiali-wang-238169https://www.olympic.org/london-2012/athletics/marathon-women

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

The May 29, 2012 was the date she would have been notified of the ABP anomalies and that a sanction would not be brought until she had been given the opportunity to provide an explanation for the alleged abnormalities (IAAF Rule 32.2 (b) – Athlete Biological Passport). And there would have been a longitudinal profile prior to that date. She might have gotten spooked to tone it down from the notification and/or any increased target testing. And she apparently was permitted to compete during the investigation, hence London where she already had the "A" standard. And, btw, her London results (2:35/58th) were not annulled. You can check all three sites; Wikipedia, Flotrack & the official Olympic site where her 58th place finish is listed - and not any disqualification. Her 2 yr ban went into effect from Feb/2013 thru Feb/2015.

RunningPhreak wrote:

If you plot the 5k times vs year and do a linear progression analysis you will see that the WR progression has not increased nor shows signs of slowing down in the last 90 years. By 2012 the WR will be around 12:10.

It's 2020 and still 12:37 !!!

Dang, someone bring up a post of mine from 16 years ago!!

Does Geb still have the fastest final 1000m in, say, a sub-13:00 race? This is what made him the GOAT, best closer of all-time. In his prime he could rip a 23-sec final 200m. Beautiful.

Haile Gebrselassie, 2:27.3

Said Aouita, 2:28:24

Haile Gebrselassie, 2:28.7

Haile Gebrselassie, 2:28.7

Kenenisa Bekele, 2:29.42

GRod wrote:

Dang, someone bring up a post of mine from 16 years ago!!

Does Geb still have the fastest final 1000m in, say, a sub-13:00 race? This is what made him the GOAT, best closer of all-time. In his prime he could rip a 23-sec final 200m. Beautiful.

Haile Gebrselassie, 2:27.3

Said Aouita, 2:28:24

Haile Gebrselassie, 2:28.7

Haile Gebrselassie, 2:28.7

Kenenisa Bekele, 2:29.42

That's what i thought too. Pretty damn sick to think of closing in 2:27 for a 12:39 race. Twenty-three years ago too. Makes you wonder ...

GRod wrote:

Dang, someone bring up a post of mine from 16 years ago!!

Does Geb still have the fastest final 1000m in, say, a sub-13:00 race? This is what made him the GOAT, best closer of all-time. In his prime he could rip a 23-sec final 200m. Beautiful.

Haile Gebrselassie, 2:27.3

Said Aouita, 2:28:24

Haile Gebrselassie, 2:28.7

Haile Gebrselassie, 2:28.7

Kenenisa Bekele, 2:29.42

And then 14 years later it got 'rekrunnered'.

Classic Letsrun.

New WR from Joshua Cheptegei!

Joshua Cheptegei (2020) - 12:35.36! I don't his 1km splits, but his 400m splits were (60.70, 61.70, 60.64, 60.41, 61.25, 60.91, 60.03, 60.10, 60.18, 60.33, 59.97, and 59.64). Meaning he had a 5:00.22 final 2km, 7:31.59 final 3km, and 8:02.41 final 3200m!