50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

KCgeezer wrote:

... do you race better in the morning or at night? Do you race better when someone is in front of you?

I can't quote any studies off the top of my head, but my recollection is that for most people, optimal performance is in the early afternoon. For me, morning races were always terribly difficult, as my work schedule was usually 3 pm to 3 am (morning daily publication). So an 8 a.m. race was the middle of the night to me (akin to 2 a.m. for most folks). No surprise that my masters 5K PR was set at one of those rare evening races (ran it during my "lunch" break).

As for running faster with someone ahead of you, well, there's a reason they use pacesetters.

Squatty Old Runner -- Wow, sounds like you've had a few setbacks. By comparison I've been pretty lucky, but my current knee problem has me rather disheartened. Symptoms are the same as a year ago when it was diagnosed as runner's knee. No MRI's or anything like that, so based only on the PT's analysis. It responded to strengthening exercises, almost miraculously, although the pain was always present to some degree. This time, not so well.

I've been running since age 13. Not a great talent but sometimes competitive at a local level. 4:45 mile in high school wasn't good enough even to make the sectional meet. Walked onto my college track team as a senior; no time for such nonsense my first three years (DIII).

My races this past year age-grade a little faster than my lifetime and masters PRs (low 16s 5K, 2:40 marathon at age 23; 17:10 5K, 2:56 marathon at age 43). At age 58, I ran a 3:07 marathon, which age-grades to 2:36, so just a bit "better" than in my youth.

I've always been a low-mileage runner. My 36 mpw average this past year I think is, incredibly, the highest ever in my life (calendar year, that is .... a 12-month period 1982-83 was higher).

Carry on, friend. Best of luck to you.

Squatty - My race weight this past year was about 163. Holidays + injury = 10 extra pounds. Race weight in my 40s was 170. I was at 160 for the marathon 15 months ago. Been as heavy as 185 a few times (first time was at age 18 ... ha! Beer + no running = 30 pounds in three months!)

KCgeezer wrote:

Hey, you reading this -- do you race better in the morning or at night? Do you race better when someone is in front of you? How about if that person is a guy on a bike?

if you look at body temp fluctuations, and make the presumption that higher body temps (within our healthy range) lead to better performance (part of why we warm up), then there is an argument to be made for the best time to race being around 11am to 7pm. my professional coach, joe douglas believed this. of course, these are averages, meaning there are exceptions, and there are so many other factors to good performances that you obviously can't single out time of day. don't know if any studies have been done on this single factor, and i'd suspect this does not apply to marathons or longer distances in general...

because my coach believed this, and i believed my coach, he felt you could "artificially" pre-start your body temp averages by waking earlier, and for this reason he felt that for any race in the morning that he wanted to treat as an important race/championship, he wanted me up 4 hours before (it takes around 4 hours from the average waking lows to near your your average highs). this didn't happen often, since track races are usually afternoon/evening, but the rare important road race where we may be running earlier, i'd follow his instructions, and always felt it helped. i continue this practice, and it seems to have served me well at the carlsbad 5k where i'm up at 3am for the 7am start, though i entertain the possibility i could have run faster with more sleep--i guess i'll never really know, except my two fastest times on the course do line up well with my two fastest 5ks as a masters that i did on the track the same year in evening races just 2-3 weeks before (2009: 5k track, 14:39; carlsbad 14:50; 2010: 5k track 14:29; carlsbad 14:40--most allow for around a 10 second difference slower on the roads, assuming it's a relatively flat accurate course)...

at least for me, following people was essential in all of my best races, and while some may be good at front running, i'd bet even they'd agree a competitive race with people close behind them still helps...

that's my story and i'm sticking to it,

cush

Interesting reading this week. Enjoying our 'no winter' this year here in the Great White North. We haven't seen a snowflake since November, which is ok with me! March is only 7 weeks away...

Solid week for me. Averaging 8 miles/day so far this year! Steady relaxed runs with nothing too crazy. I dropped into the low 7:00's for the last 4 miles of my Saturday 10. I didn't check my watch so its kind of nice thinking I'm running 745's when actually its about 7:16! Plan is to keep on 'just running' for a while longer...hopeful of getting the miles consistently around 60/mpw.

Thats it from here. Have a good week!

Dave

Late morning to late afternoon would be best, but other than XC and a race like Boston or NYC, most road races are either fairly early morning or occasionally evening. I'm good from about 7 AM to 6 PM for a start time, and do 95 to 99% of my running between those times. I mix run time a lot every week, partially to be ready at most any time partially because my schedule can vary some. Don't like real early starts (6 AM) nor late. I did Midnight Sun Run in Alaska 10-12 times and it started at 10 PM. Always through you off on race day and for a couple days after.

Prefer to chase other runners, but having a solid lead is awesome too.

Great stuff cush. I will try this out at the Butterworth relays next month, since the warmup race (mile) is at noon and the main event (3K) three hours later. Hopefully there will be a 40-year-old dude who likes to lead.

Thanks to Allan and CM for weighing in. If I'm in the country for Bolder Boulder, I'll enter that and set my alarm for 3 am ...

Allen1959 wrote:

A few interesting studies, tables, etc on age-related performance declines:

https://fairmodel.econ.yale.edu/aging

I haven't given it a thorough read yet, but one table lists predicted declines from age 40 to age 95. I plugged in a couple stats. I trained seriously at age 43, running 17:10 for 5K. If my math is correct, that "predicted" I was capable of 16:40 at age 40, which in turn would predict 20:00 at age 59. I ran 19:13.

I'm not sure if, or how, this table differs from the Age Grade calculations. I think both are based on world-best performances.

According to these tables, I should be able to run sub-4 marathon until age 68, sub-2 half until age 74, sub-60 10k until age 79 and sub-30 5k until age 82. We'll see how it goes.

And since I am not a morning person by nature, I am probably better off with a late start as long as it is not too hot to race. My 5k PB was at a race that started at 2pm. Unfortunately most road races start early in the morning, even in winter. I will just have to accept that.

M: off.

T: 4 miles.

W: 5 miles.

R: 5 miles.

F: 6 miles.

SA: 6 miles.

SU: 7.5 miles.

So after a week of voluntary cutback during holidays, I am slowly rebuilding my mileage again. Sunday was my first outdoor running since September. I did 30 laps of a 400m track, starting with 6:18 for the first km and finished with 4:54 for the last k. 12km is not exactly a "long" run, and 4:54/km is not exactly "fast." But that's a start, and hopefully I can build on this. (I am planning to do at least one more run on the track before staring to run in a park.)

I'm 56 years old, 5' 9" and 145 lbs , naturally fast I guess, and quite fit as I teach tennis and badminton for a living and have been lucky enough to have a job that allows me to stay fit and lucky enough to have stayed relatively injury free.

Last year I decided to run some 5K's with no training other than running a 2-4 miles, 4-5 days each week before the races. I've never run any 5K's before last year.

In the first 5K I ran low 23 minutes on a very grassy and hilly course. I was wiped out and far more fatigued than I thought I would be- took a day to recover.

Decided to run another 5K two weeks later and this time ran low 22's dropping almost a full minute on a very hot and humid day on a hilly course which was on asphalt.

I ran another 5K two weeks later and "trained" a bit more this time and ran 21:15- dropping another minute from the previous race.

The last race was in August and since then I've taken to running a bit more, about 20-25 miles per week I'd say, with no training regimen to speak of.

My question: Is it possible/realistic for me to run a 19 minute 5K by this coming summer given my age and if so what would a weekly training regimen look like to maximize that possibility?

Sure.

You won't know until you try! Good luck with your quest, it's doable.

Gradual base build up to 40 mpw and then get into a 5K specific program. Lots of good books out there (Check Daniels, Magill, or Pfitzinger for starters) or hire a local or online coach.

Hi Allen! You sound a lot like me two years ago. I'm a little younger than you but we're almost exactly the same build and my first race times were pretty close to yours. So yes, that's all in the range of possible, provided you aren't in too much of a hurry and do it right.

As you can see, this thread is pretty long, but you might find it helpful to scroll back and read previous messages. It's kind of an ongoing conversation interrupted by updates from the regulars. You're welcome to join in.

Though it's cycling instead of running, does this guy look incredible at the age of 90 or what? This cat has out lived Whitlock!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/90-year-old-pursuit-world-champion-given-public-warning-for-anti-doping-violation/

Heck, if I'm fortunate enough to live to 90...I'd be thrilled just to be able to peddle a bike around the neighborhood! (And I wouldn't mind having some of that contaminated meat either! ?).

I was just about to post this here! As a plant-based eater I have a very simple solution to ensure Mr. Grove never tests positive again ...

KCgeezer wrote:

I was just about to post this here! As a plant-based eater I have a very simple solution to ensure Mr. Grove never tests positive again ...

Yeah, because a lifetime of meat-eating has obviously not been working out for him. Who cares that he looks 65 at 90 and clearly is healthy as an ox. Time to "plant-power" and catch up to the rest of us broken-down old fartz!

KCgeezer wrote:

I was just about to post this here! As a plant-based eater I have a very simple solution to ensure Mr. Grove never tests positive again ...

It's funny that USADA would waste money and test lone wolf competitors in the first place.

If anyone remembers this happen a couple years back at the indoor championships were USADA bagged this unassuming looking chap who was a lone wolf competitor in two race walking events. It's rather silly, IMO, that competitors unopposed in their age group at the masters level would be tested anyway. I certainly can't imagine that USADA would be popping champagne corks and celebrating that they caught some big-time master dopers. ?

Race Walker, 60, Under Doping Ban Blames Testers or Tainted Lotion

"In the Wednesday chat, McPherson argued for his innocence by noting he and his wife are deacons in the Second Baptist Church of Lubbock and has good standing in the community, having done optometry for 20 years."

So waz BTK. ... OFF WITH HIS HEAD Them eye doctors are kinda shady justice is blind if peds were legal there would be no cheaters tons of sponsor money like the senior tour lance got a raw deal trump is in cahoots with big pharm that wall is to keep us out of mexico ok back to youtube

...lol Charlie....I lived in eastern New Mexico, Lovington to be exact, close to Lubbock. Folks then (late 1970s) were known to hide their empty beer cans and bottles in laundry detergent boxes. That way they don’t rattle too much at garage collection....

at garbage collection....