Peter Snell Interview and his thoughts on Lydiard training

eh ???

this "finnish runner" ran 0.2s off the 800wr & won the 1500 gold with a 53.4s last lap, a manner which suggested he couda threatened ryun's 1500 wr that day if a tt

apart from snell, find one other athlete lydiard directly coached who has big enough accomplishments to deck the "finnish runner" ???

ventolin^3 wrote:

eh ???

this "finnish runner" ran 0.2s off the 800wr & won the 1500 gold with a 53.4s last lap, a manner which suggested he couda threatened ryun's 1500 wr that day if a tt

It´s not hard to imagine that he finishes the 1500m in 53.4s when you know that he did run 0.2 off the 800m riht before the olympics and being a 1500m specialist and on that 1500m finalthe lead pack splits the first 800m in 2:02, slower than the last 800m of the 5000m and 10000m of the same 72 olympics.

That run wasn´t 1500m run. It was one 400m run with early 1200m warmup !

However my conclusion is what the blood doping can´t do !

the previous lap was 55.5, so he split

62.0/45.4/55.5/53.4 !!

that evened out for energy expenditure is

~ 3'34.6

probably with other evened out parts wouda got him down to maybe about 3'34-flat

hate to say it, but even though the wr at the time was ryun's ridiculous 3'33.1 on dirt off a 1st lap jog in 95F, the finn was less close than i thought

he was actually a better 800 guy, as 1'44.5 is better than a 3'34-flat nowdays & probably for all eternity

not commenting on doping other than finns fondness for transfusions & keino believing gammoudi was doped as he didn't think he coud be outsprinted by any guy at end of a slowish 5k ( in '65 the wr was 13'35 at start - keino ended it with 13'24 )

Wetcoast wrote:

It would be interesting to read the book in English to compare it to the weight of the hundreds of elite athletes connected to Lydiard that have had great success. Should tip the scales in the favour of this Finnish runner. Then consider the thousands not connected to Lydiard that have had great success - yeah that will bring down his method for sure.

What a load.

This is the kind of logic and argument i can´t stand.

What you try to say it´s somehow if it misses 1 finger in 10 hand fingerse, the other 19 replace the broken one, or forgets the miss one, or deny the miss one. It´s not true.

Secondly, if you argue that Pekka failure can´t compare the success of other hundreds Lydiard with great sucess, how do you compare that hundred Lydiard with the thousand others that never been Lydiard but also did great success ?

The fact is that Pekka didn´t the kind of success when he was coached by Arthur that he did when he was coached by his Finn coach. We may search the reason why, out of lucky reason, this search attempt is what is rich methodology, not excuses to deny or miss or justify the poor Lydiard Pekka´s direct coach.

One of the clues that i think that might be decisive it´s the different kind of season periodisation Pekka did in 72 and 74. In the 71-72 season he did compete during the winter-spring season in several road stage relays (very popular in Finn at that time), 2 months before the olympics he did compete in track 10000m and 5000m runs . He did participate also in several 800m-1500m international meetings right before the 72 olympics. However the 73-74 season preparation for the european champs, he was injured until December 73 and out of training, and after January 74 he goes to NZ and Lydiard did one season approach without competitions before the european champs and he didn´t need to run the Finn trials or performance qualifying, because the Finn federation early selected him without the need of qualifying performance.

Sometimes, as Renato says, the blood doping doesn´t work so well in the second or third take. Think about Viren. His third 80 Moscow olympics was a disaster, he wasn´t able to run the same kind of results he did in the 2 previous olympics, 72 and 76. Think about Juha Vaattainen. On the 71 european champs he did win both the 5000m and 10000m then in 72 olympics he was last on the 5000m final. The same with Tapio Kantanen in 3000m steeple. In the 72 olympics he did well in the steeple. However in the next big games Tapio wasn´t the same good runner. Blood doping doesn´t work so well after the first or second take.

ventolin^3 wrote:

the previous lap was 55.5, so he split

not commenting on doping other than finns fondness for transfusions & keino believing gammoudi was doped as he didn't think he coud be outsprinted by any guy at end of a slowish 5k ( in '65 the wr was 13'35 at start - keino ended it with 13'24 )

First Finn distance runner to experience the blood tranfusion was Jouko Khua that did the 3000m steeple WR in 1968. Self blood transfusion is consider doping only since 1984-85.

I assume this is satire? If you've got enough time on your hands to do this, live it up. If O wants people to believe his story the burden is on him. I certainly do not expect that book to be available in English now if it ever was in English or if it ever existed at all.

First of all, we have no actual quote from Vassala criticizing Lydiard. We have an anonymous guy with a story that has absoluteoly no corroboration. I have a quote from Vassala from the cover of "Running With Lydiard" which is very complimentary. And even if such a quote exists, so what?

I don't subscribe to the belief that Viren blood doped but if he did, I think the idea that it didn't work as well on the third try as the reason for his Moscow results is reaching. How many athletes have won distance events, or even got medals, in three Olympics? I thought Viren did well to contend in those races for as long as he did. Eventually time does everyone in.

HRE wrote:I assume this is satire?

no

you are a moron if you thinked it ???

If you've got enough time on your hands to do this, live it up

plenty time

If O wants people to believe his story the burden is on him

f***ing retard

can't you see book exists & by implication the onus is on you to disprove the assertion ???

I certainly do not expect that book to be available in English now if it ever was in English or if it ever existed at all.

moron

i want the book in swahili as indo-european is a piss-ant bastardised version of original speak

fetch...

HRE wrote:

If you honestly believe that hypothetical book is readily available on used book sites or in anyone's local used book shop

That´s how I got my book. Again, it´s not hypothetical. You can easily translate the part where Pekka Vasala speaks about Lydiard by using an internet translator. But I know that you don´t want to do that.

Why you´re so angry? The only idiot here are you Harry. That´s fine, go away and hide from the truth.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

First Finn distance runner to experience the blood tranfusion was Jouko Khua that did the 3000m steeple WR in 1968. Self blood transfusion is consider doping only since 1984-85.

Two wrong conclusions. The name was Jouko Kuha and he hasn´t never said that he experienced blood transfusion. That is a rumour. If he would have done that then why he didn´t do that again just before Mexico olympics? He lost his shape after the WR run, which could have been easily handled by this blood transfusion, and he still didn´t do that.

To say such a strong things I would like to hear the source or evidence too Antonio.

ventolin^3 wrote:

HRE wrote:I assume this is satire?

no

you are a moron if you thinked it ???

If you've got enough time on your hands to do this, live it up

plenty time

If O wants people to believe his story the burden is on him

f***ing retard

can't you see book exists & by implication the onus is on you to disprove the assertion ???

I certainly do not expect that book to be available in English now if it ever was in English or if it ever existed at all.

moron

i want the book in swahili as indo-european is a piss-ant bastardised version of original speak

fetch...

Great post, thanks.

HRE wrote:

First of all, we have no actual quote from Vassala criticizing Lydiard.

You are right, Vassala didn´t critizize Lydiard. It was VASALA who did critizize Lydiard in the book that was in the link of "ventolin", many thanks to him again.

Vasala, not Vassala. Got it?

I have no interest in buying a book in a language I can't read on the word of some anonymous guy on the internet and then tyoing in who knows how many pages of its contents into a translating page on the assumption that there's an imprtant point to be made. For all I know this could be a practical joke. If O wants to convince me that the quote exists then HE can do the work. Or you can.

I'm angry because I get sick of dealing with people like you who contribute nothing to a discussion like this and somehow think that you're making a point.

HRE wrote:

I have no interest in buying a book in a language I can't read on the word of some anonymous guy on the internet and then tyoing in who knows how many pages of its contents into a translating page on the assumption that there's an imprtant point to be made. For all I know this could be a practical joke. If O wants to convince me that the quote exists then HE can do the work. Or you can.

I'm angry because I get sick of dealing with people like you who contribute nothing to a discussion like this and somehow think that you're making a point.

No Harry it´s you who makes a pratical joke of yourself :D I know that you know that I am right about Mr. Vasala´s comments in the book, and everyone else here knows it but you just keep making a fool of yourself.

And I definitely have a point in my posts. I did the work for you and found the book in a very cheap price which even you can afford:

Have a nice reading experience.

Another one for you Harry-the-clown:

http://www.antikvaari.fi/naytatuote.asp?id=236883

Ö

Ö wrote:I know that you know that I am right about Mr. Vasala´s comments in the book, and everyone else here knows it ...

Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't know if you're right about Vasala's comments in that book. I don't read Finnish, and I find your tone a little off-putting, not leading me to assume you to be trustworthy.

How about you scan and post the quoted passage along with a translation (in the quote's original context, i.e. include the text immediately before and after the quote)?

Excuse me for type error. It´s not Viren, It´s Virén (with an accent on the “e” !). It´s not Antonio as well, It´s António with an accent on the “o”. It´s not Juha Vaatainen it´s JUHA VÄÄTÄINEN ...is this correct this time with diaeresis ? ....kidding...

My afraid is that this thread changes from the main issue, but It´s also my responsibility to be engaged in the Finn runners discuss. Some percent of the Finn discuss is related to Lydiard because Lydiard did work for the Finn federation and revindicate some part of the Finn success of that period. However runners like JUHA VÄÄTÄINEN (...is this correct this time with diaeresis ? ....kidding...) they deny every Lydiard influence or Lydiard training. Therefore what we can say it´s that A FEW Finn runners of the 70s-80s eventually got some Lydiard training influence, during the late 60s Lydiard stay in Finland.

Who is the runner that after be catch with drugs confess ? Who is the runner that isn´t catch and confesses ? Not many.

In the Khua case he couldn´t be accused from blood-doping-transfusion, because what he did was not illegal at the time, only after 84-85, and you want his confession ?

What i know it´s that the Finn federation on the mid 60s start one strategic project to enhance the distance runners performance. That long time project is did include among other things: systematic stays in altitude; to pay for the runners to be full- time professionals (or eventually have total free-time training facilities out of their jobs and plenty of time to train; training facilities, and also the runner took part of one scientific plan of reaseach that included the experiment with self-blood.-tranfusion that was been tested by ski-cross-runners and experiment with success. One part of the project is that the coaches be in-date with new modern training methodology, and it´s at this point that they did contact Arthur Lydiard because they were aware of the Lydiard sucess, and they wanted a new kind of training for their distances athletes. The Finn federation selected some runners for this project, selected some scientists-physiologists, but all was done in secret somehow. The Finn federation made them all people of te project sign one contract-agreement that in the condition that every person from the project: from scientists to coaches to runners, they couldn´t reveal what they Are doingm how they are doing.

The reason they did didn´t confess, and mosty of the Finn runners didn´t confess it´s because they sign that contract with the Finn Federation to accept the self-blood-transfusion method and on that contract ther´s one clause that states they can´t make no reference about self-blood transfusion at all.

As you imagine it´s hard to keep a secrete. Some revelations were been done. Actually by extrapolation of confessions we know for sure that from the top best Khua, Vaatainen, Viren, Kantanen, Paivarinta, Vasala, Janne Holmen, Vaino, Maaninka, Olavi Suomalainen, did self-blood-transfusion, among others.

I know that later in Europe, in other countries, other Federations and other runners individualy – they did teh self-blood-transfusion in the 80s folowing the pratice of the Finn federation. Therefore what the finns did it was not illegal at that time, but it was private, but an official and syetematic and organized project, not individual pratice.

I also know about European Federation that at that time did contact the Finn one to ask if they could learn how is done, to use it in their own distance runners.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Who is the runner that after be catch with drugs confess ? Who is the runner that isn´t catch and confesses ? Not many.

Not Viren, or Khua they will never confess.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

As you imagine it´s hard to keep a secrete WHEN SO MANY PEOPLE KNOW. Some revelations were been done. Actually by extrapolation of confessions we know for sure that from the top best Khua, Vaatainen, Viren, Kantanen, Paivarinta, Vasala, Janne Holmen, Vaino, Maaninka, Olavi Suomalainen, did self-blood-transfusion, among others.

Excuse, I don´t wanted to say Janne Holmén but her mother Nina Holmén and his father - i really don´t remember the name of the father and husband of Nina.

One more point. This is noting official, i can´t priove it in a court, it´s just my opinion, but personally i haven´t doubt at all that it was done as as i say.

Excuse me to insist. Part of the reason that most of them did build one long aerobic block with no competitions and they try a strong tapper/peak – once a year – the deep reason it´s not the Lydiard training guide, it´s because the self-blood-transfusion to be effective works only in one a short period of every year.

Some people thinks they did long blocks without training because they follow the Lydiard method. The main reason they did it, it´s because of the self-blood-transfusion procedure.

I want to let you know how the self-blood-transfusion it´s done.

It consists in taking self-blood out of the body ( half a litre) normally in 2 different periods of the same season. The first one 8-10 months before the season peak competition/period, and the second one some 5-6 before the season peak competition/period. The blood is collect and preserve at lower-negative 70º degree Celsius temperature.

About 2 weeks before the target goal run the litre of self- blood is reintroduced in the runners body.

This way the VO2max of the runner improves up about 10 to 20%