Failure . . . JACK DANIELS marathon program . . . ideas?

Less speedwork, more miles. Until you are pushing 100 mpw consistently, lay WAY back on the speed stuff.

sounds like you're training hard and well at a tough time of year; nice going.

I would recommend a 4th option to consider, which is adjusting the pace on the quality workouts to what you believe you could do, today, under the prevailing conditions. So for instance if 7:30 or so is goal MP assuming good weather at Chicago, maybe start the 13-mile MP [a tough workout no matter what] at 7:50--8:00 if it's hot and/or humid. If it's too easy, you can always pick it up to 7:30 for last few miles.

I think it's helpful to have some actual-MP runs before the goal race in order to practice the pace, but you're still two months out, so I'm not sure every one has to be on it regardless of conditions.

Same concept for T pace, etc. -- what could you run an hour race in today on this course?

good luck with Chicago!

Dave

Maybe you should just adjust your goal and workout paces. This seems like the easiest and most effective solution.

If the weather on marathon day was 90* you would adjust your goal pace. Are you using a VDOT from a race in equivalent conditions?

If, when the weather cools down, you are able to pick up your pace to where you think it should be, then you should still be right on track. If you can't, maybe you need to adjust your goal time.

I too am following this plan and I too am struggling with the paces. This summer has been a hot and humid summer pretty much throughout the country so it is understandable that running has become more difficult. What I have done is instead of for example the 4x10 minute at tempo I have gone 2x10 minute and then 4x5 minute with only a minute rest. This has given me some kind of relief while keeping my spirits up by being able to hit my tempo paces.

Ultimately, I will run with what I have trying not to alter the plan too much, then hopefully when the weather breaks I can once again return to my recommended paces.

you're overtraining. you need to shift to more speed focus, reduce your heat stress, and then get back to it in one month or so when conditions are more civil.

when the heat index is high you should be in AC or limit some of your overdistance to walking.

200m 45" w/100m walk will work well in this case, as will 400m reps 1:50 on 2:30 ~40" recovery. stop the set when effort before RPE reaches 15-16. should feel like you are working but stopping while still capable of several more reps.

I have seen Jack Daniels' marathon training schedules before, and from what I remember the hard workouts were often ridiculously hard, the type of stuff I know there is no way I could complete unless in a race type situation. For some of them it seemed like he would just string together a random series of tempo, marathon, and easy paced segments until it added up to 20 miles. So given that some of those workouts are really hard to begin with, not adjusting the paces properly to account for the weather would be suicidal.

I do not mean to imply that I am running the recommended VDOT paces this summer. I have slowed my paces and have really focused on perceived effort. I went at this mornings 13@MP with the notion that I would run the first half between 8:30 and 8:00 and the second half between 8:00 and 7:30. Like a fast finish long run.

I guess my concern is my failure to complete the workout (I did 14 of the 17 scheduled miles)even if I wasn't "spot on pace."

So would I benefit more from just doing easy mileage in this heat and humidity or would I benefit more by getting in some quality work - whether shorter work efforts or double work outs. Maybe the answer is six of one a half dozen of the other?

At the end of the day - I know I'm getting in good mileage (for me), I'm healthy and running well (knock on wood) so I shouldn't get too worked up about today - I just don't like setting a goal/eying a workout and not completing it.

Easy solution, weigh yoursefl before and after each run, then you will know for sure why those runs are so hard. I lost 7 pounds in a ten mile run 12 days ago. It was only when I weighed myself that I knew why that run was so hard despite a moderate pace.

I feel your pain. I'm training in TN, and it's been ridiculous. A couple weeks ago, I realized I just couldn't do those workouts, so I've been ditching the watch and running hard by feel or just running faster whenever I feel good. I'm an extreme sweater, lose twice as much fluid than my usual training partners.

I figure if I'm running 100 mpw in 90 degree heat and injecting up-tempo running whenever I feel I can, I'll feel so chipper if it's 50 degrees or so come 10-10-10. And once it cools off even a little in the coming weeks it'll be a welcome reprieve and those longer M Pace runs will come.

I think considering your goals, you are training extremely hard. Not to mention, JD's marathon quality workouts are brutal. They really simulate the late stages of a marathon and what it feels like. If you can get through them, you are going to do really well. The heat is a huge factor and most likely to blame for you not getting through the workouts, although it is possible that your mileage is bit too much for you. It's hard to say for sure without knowing your mileage/training history. But I suspect the heat is the biggest factor. You will likely feel like a million bucks when the temps cool off.

I had a post-collegian last year that incorporated JD's quality marathon workouts into his training and he ran out of his mind in his debut marathon, exceeding both of our expectations. Even though he had some set backs along the way and we thought he wasn't as prepared as we would have liked, he held together extremely well in the late stages of the marathon and I think much of it was due to how well JD's workouts simulate the way the last few miles of a marathon feel.

It is very tough to run 15 miles at goal MP in decent conditions, let alone the heat. There's something about the adrenaline rush from the crowd in a major marathon like Chicago that seems to elevate your performance and allow you to run at goal pace for much longer than in practice.... not to mention if the weather is ideal and you are tapered.

So I guess my point is, don't get too frustrated and lose faith. I would stay optimistic and see how much better you feel when you get to do some of the workouts in respectable weather conditions.

Good luck and enjoy the Chicago Marathon. It's a great experience.

ps- As a previous poster pointed out, your goal pace is just that - a goal. It's not necessarily the pace you could run TODAY in hot temps. You have over 2 months to go. You will get there.

I don't see how many could do Daniels's marathon workouts at all and particularly in the deep South. I didn't get much of a weather break in Savannah last year until mid October and struggled mightily to run 10 miles almost at marathon pace just before that. In much better weather in November, I ran faster than that tempo for the marathon. So, I would not expect that you do 14M tempos at marathon pace in the south at this time of year.

the answer is lydiard. Train lydiard. Train lydiard. Ahhhhhhhh! Lydiardddddd! Train lydiard!!!!! Do it now!!!! Ahhhh!!! Lydiard!!!!!

edumacator: I have seen Jack Daniels' marathon training schedules before, and from what I remember the hard workouts were often ridiculously hard, the type of stuff I know there is no way I could complete unless in a race type situation.

Yes.

I'm sure they work well for some of those runners who barely exceed in races what they do routinely in workouts - which I cannot begin to identify with.

To the OP: in my late 30's one spring I did a season of Daniels's 10k training. Not his marathon plan, but at least a similar guiding philosophy. Put in a lot of hard work, followed it diligently, often felt like I was barely skirting injury, and only improved a bit.

Following fall I tossed that in favor of some composite of old-skool by-feel training per malmo & others here, and the Hanson's "marathoning for hobbyjoggers" plan, and enjoyed my most radical improvement in my running life. Essentially no intervals or runs longer than a couple hours; instead the focus was on running twice a day, total miles, and tempos around MP.

Later upon skimming the Daniels book, I noticed this was fairly consistent with his recommendations for older runners anyway: somewhere he suggests we geezers probably respond better to tempo type work than lots of faster stuff.

I'm torn on how to vote for what you should do the next few months. One thought is, you've started with the program, may as well stick with it and learn on 10/10 how it actually worked for you. I did learn some things from following his program - stuff which didn't work well for me and stuff which clearly helped a lot (like short quick bits aka "reps" - far more so for me than 3k-5k pace intervals).

If you are running 80 miles a week I wouldn't call you a hobbyjogger. You are a runner.

[quote]dsrunner has the day off wrote:

you're overtraining. you need to shift to more speed focus, reduce your heat stress, and then get back to it in one month or so when conditions are more civil.

when the heat index is high you should be in AC or limit some of your overdistance to walking. [quote]

You must be a dumbass underachieving spoiled American kid. Turn off the AC and acclimate to the heat. And that's at home and in your mommy's SUV. When it get's tough you quit? That mentality gets your ass kicked on race day.

I must agree with many of the other posters who are telling you that you are overtraining. Running a 3:15 marathon for a 40 year old is not that difficult of a task, when training at a moderate level. Your workouts are geared more closely for a 2:30-2:40 effort. The bottom line is that I think you are working yourself down to the point where there won't be anything left in the tank when it comes to the marathon. You need to back off, adjust your training schedule, cutting your mileage down to around 50 miles a week and replenish your base. Not only is the hot weather draining you, but those workouts are not doing you any good.

You have enough time to make adjustments and begin to feel strong again, but give yourself a few weeks of medium running just to recover.

If you are running 80 miles a week, holding down a full time job and have family responsibilities, something is going to give and it sounds like the signs are there already.

I like Jack a lot and think his running theory is sound, but keep in mind that his training programs are geared for pretty much full time athletes.

Relax a bit and enjoy your daily runs without putting so much pressure on yourself.

yamaha wrote:

Less speedwork, more miles. Until you are pushing 100 mpw consistently, lay WAY back on the speed stuff.

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i disagree somewhat.

A 3:15 marathoner should not be logging 100 mpw, If I'm hearing you right?

The Jaxk Daniels workouts are fine to a point. However, you as a 3+ hr marathoner should just be focusing on 3 things.

1 - get solid miles in each week. you do not need 80 miles per week. You should do fine with 60+.

2 - At least one speed workout and one tempo run each week. They should be modified for your level. Maybe try 3 x 1 mile on the road with a 3 min jog between.

3 - plenty of rest, fluids, and nutrition. I know it sounds like a gym teacher, but if you keep running this many miles without taking the proper rest or getting enoug fluids and food, you will breakdown, and your training will all be for nothing.

Thanks to all for some very solid advice. I think I may be biting off a little more than I can chew. More speedwork and tempos, more mileage and one of the most oppressive summers ever probably has me run down. I think I will take about 10 days of easy running and see if I can't get a break in the weather come mid to late August. I will also dial back some of the quality workouts and stress QUALITY of the workout rather than quantity. I will continue to try and get as much "easy volume" as I can handle.

Again - thanks for some solid advice.

I know this is a super old post but thank you! Reading this makes me feel much better. I'm 42 my pr is 3:29, and am hoping to hit under 3:25, really hoping for 3:19. I have been following this same plan. I kept up with all the workouts, but they have. Progressively gotten so difficult I was feeling awful about my training. I am on the same workout that you were on the 2 miles easy, 12 miles or 100' @MP, 2 miles easy.. I couldn't do it, not even close. And mentally just even thinking attempting it made me exhausted. Hope your training that season ended well. I'd love to know what you ended up doing. I think I'm going to finish out my last 6 weeks with one of my older plans and just hope the rest of my training ends up ok. Thanks again for this post!