Can someone please define these terms...

the first 3 are the same thing.

VO2 is different.

What are they then? Pace/recovery example...

aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold are like sides to the front door of your house, one side is inside and the other side is outside, but they both represent the same location on your house. Lactate threshold is simply a different way to describe the same point.

For lactate threshold, it is a point on a graph where your blood lactate begins to go up, markedly. Up to a certain pace, lactate concentrations remain basically the same, then as pace increases, it jumps at some particular pace (based on your fitness level). The pace/point where it jumps is your lactate threshold.

There are a number of ways to "guess" the pace, but to get a good number, you need to do blood tests on a treadmill. A good rule of thumb for this pace is the pace that you could handle for a race lasting 1 hour.

look at the graph on this link.

http://users.telenet.be/wy/sport/t6/t6%20Accurate%20Speed-Distance%20Measuremnt_files/image194.jpg

The pace where lactate concentration begins to rise on this graph, is the lactate threshold pace.

sorry, wrong graph.

http://www.lactate.com/images/image33.gif

VO2 Max is ~3k / 2 mile pace.

Aerobic threshold is not the same as anaerobic threshold.

So what do you call something like 200's at 800 pace or faster?

Once we did 6 x 300 with 5 min rest but it was close to 400 pace (hey we were distance runners) and it was fast. What would you call that in technical terms?

i know wrote:

Aerobic threshold is not the same as anaerobic threshold.

Though there may still be some who differentiate between the two, most now accept that aerobic threshold, anaerobic threshold, and lactate threshold all refer to the same thing.

Coach K wrote:

Though there may still be some who differentiate between the two, most now accept that aerobic threshold, anaerobic threshold, and lactate threshold all refer to the same thing.

I bow to your superior knowledge, Coach K. Thank you for your continued postings on letsrun. We love hearing from you!

Dr. Vigil still differentiates between aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold. Based on his charts and what he said at the NDRS last weekend, anaerobic threshold, lactate threshold, and tempo all refer to the same pace. Aerobic threshold is roughly 20 seconds per mile slower.

Not saying Vigil knows everything, but it's hard to argue that his methods haven't produced solid results.

The short answer is no -- no one can define these terms. Since everyone uses the terms before defining them, they mean many things in different contexts.

I don't want to contradict Coach K., so perhaps I will just expand on what I think "old" definitions are, based on the contexts I have seen, in case you stumble across information written before common acceptance.

These are all terms to describe some physiological phenomena, although they are often associated with a specific effort or a workout.

Aerobic Threshold is the one I least understand. I find it useful to think of the Aerobic Threshold as the boundary between Endurance and Tempo runs, and as the boundary between "fat-burning" and "carb-burning". I'm sure both interpretations are factually wrong, since Endurance and Tempo Runs are both aerobic, and it probably has nothing to do with identifying the fat/carb burning boundary, but it doesn't matter, because the term is not used that much, and is basically the least important.

Anaerobic Threshold is associated with the point where lactate accumulation (triggered by the production of energy anaerobically) is no longer controlled, and generally signals the beginning of the end of your exercise. The effort is often estimated as your 1 hour race pace.

Using the terms "aerobic" and "anaerobic" to describe the thresholds are problematic, as faster efforts like 10K and 5K races are still mostly aerobic, hence the respective thresholds aren't really aerobic/anaerobic in nature.

Lactate Threshold is usually equated to Anaerobic Threshold, and is a better term in that it avoids the aerobic/anaerobic confusion. I say usually, because I have seen Lactate Threshold equated to Aerobic Threshold, while another term "Maximum Lactate Steady State" was equated to Anaerobic Threshold. Lactate Threshold is also often equated to Maximum Lactate Steady State.

Tempo runs are used to improve your Lactate Threshold, either as continuous steady state runs (up to 1 hour?), or broken up into long (10-20 minutes) repeats.

Sometimes the two thresholds are defined in terms of measured blood lactate, e.g. 2mmol and 4mmol, but these measures can vary from athlete to athlete, and changes with improved fitness.

VO2max corresponds to the maximum volume of oxygen you can consume during exercise, in ml/kg/min. Your 3K pace seems like a reasonable estimate for the effort. Some claim that a VO2max plateau has never been shown, and therefore a maximum doesn't exist. I believe it is not infinite, so it should be possible to find a reasonable upper bound, or accept the results of a VO2max test, and not debate about the existence of a plateau.

Improving your VO2max is usually achieved by short repeats (typically 3K to 8K pace) with short recovery, often called VO2max Intervals, or Aerobic Capacity Intervals.

Anaerobic Capacity Intervals are also short repeats (e.g. 1600m pace), but with longer recoveries. These kind of repeats are not associated with your terms.

Some links with useful descriptions of threshold definitions and discussions:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/training1.htm

(see sidebar)

http://www.lactate.com/threshold.html

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/lacthres.htm

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/vo2max.htm

this is part of the problem. no one speaks the same fvcking language, everyone uses similar words but they mean whatever the person wants them to mean. when you call a color "red", i call the same color "green" and fred calls it "blue" - well you go abso-fvckin-lutley know where.

i fall into the camp that aerobic, anaerobic and lactate threshold are all the same thing.

so basically we have the case where all of these words mean everything and as a result, they mean nothing.

Speaking of using bad language...

I don't believe the terms mean nothing -- in most cases it should still be possible to determine the intended meaning from the context.

Although the attempts to link things to physiological events at first seems scientific, and universal, and noble, in my quest to find the same useful definitions, I found instead that it causes too much useless debate, particularly for those concerned less with physiology, and more with running.

I prefer to use pragmatic terms linked more directly and less ambiguously, to the desired result, or descriptive of the workout, using terms like easy run for recovery, long run for endurance, tempo runs, steady-state runs, or long repeats, for stamina, short repeats for speed, and form, repeats with partial recovery, or full recovery, etc.

It's a relatively new preference though.

From the "2 kinds of runners" thread, Hadd talks about two thresholds:http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2375989&page=1 The Green Line on the graph is set at 177 bpm and represents this runner's Lactate Threshold (LT) which corresponds to 2 mmol/l blood lactate ([La]b). It can thus be noted that 2mM is the effort level this athlete can maintain for a full marathon. This is in line with the published literature on world class performances.Readers should not confuse what I term LT as being that intensity which correspondes to "maximal effort for one hour". The sports science terminology can often be confusing (with LT, OBLA, MLSS, LTP, OPLA, AT, IAT, etc).Those whom I have advised online for some years will know that the training model I use mandates two "thresholds". Up until very recently I referred to these as Aerobic Threshold (AeT) and Anaerobic Threshold (AnT). Given that this terminology is now recognised to be both inaccurate and misleading, in line with the literature I now use the (respective) terms Lactate Threshold (LT) and Lactate Turnpoint (LTP). The former (LT) corresponds extremely well (and is useful) with training for marathon performance, while the Lactate Turnpoint correlates better with MaxLaSS (Maximum Lactate Steady State) and thus HM and 10k performances.

Coach K wrote:

Though there may still be some who differentiate between the two, most now accept that aerobic threshold, anaerobic threshold, and lactate threshold all refer to the same thing.

Thank you for that information, Voice. My own definitions are in line with those proposed by Martin & Coe. Though there are certainly different definitions in use for these terms, I find most of my colleagues are comfortable with the M&C terminology. Nevertheless, it behooves us all to clarify our terminology before we proffer our thoughts on training and related subjects.

You're welcome. I agree, especially given the history and the broad and sometimes conflicting usage of these terms, with clarifying the terminology to get everyone on the same page. If LT means 2mmol to the coach, and 4mmol to the athlete, he's in for a world of pain and disappointment.Just curious. What are the Martin & Coe proposed definitions?

Coach K wrote:

Thank you for that information, Voice. My own definitions are in line with those proposed by Martin & Coe. Though there are certainly different definitions in use for these terms, I find most of my colleagues are comfortable with the M&C terminology. Nevertheless, it behooves us all to clarify our terminology before we proffer our thoughts on training and related subjects.