Are you stiff as hell? That's a good thing for running and may explain why Kipchoge is so damn good at the marathon

Wrong. The older you get, the more tendon compliance, making you less efficient!

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15347630/

However, other studies have shown that old people can regain tendon stiffness with high intensity resistance training, but not low intensity training.

Here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4082599/

I had always thought that this was common knowledge.

Case in point.

Back in the late 80s, after my running days I migrated over to the dark side - triathlon. During that time I came across numerous collegiate swimmers who, after college, needed something to do with all their new found free time - triathlon.

We quickly developed a symbiotic relationship; the swimmers provided me with swim technique and I would take them to the track to try and teach them how to run. They would quickly get frustrated with my lack of flexibility and I would try to figure out a way to "tighten" them up. Swimmers were so flexible that every stride was different. The ones that didn't wash out with injuries had figured out how to hold a repetitive stride together and did very well.

My only saving grace was swim specific wet suits.

They had such a good aerobic engine they would improve dramatically but would eventually fall apart with injuries.

I think flexibility is unnecessary for distance running, whereas most other sports require flexibility. So you can excel in running with or without flexibility, but it's not a liability. Judging by their strides, Kipchoge and Bekele have pretty good flexibility (befitting their 3:30 1500 abilities), but it's mostly irrelevant for the marathon.

[swimmers are just notoriously awful (land) athletes and make for a badly skewed sample of flexible folks.]

Kipchoge has long legs in relation to his torso, as is common in elite runners.

A full range of motion in one's stride is imperative to be able to hold such a fast pace on the track through for 5k/10k, maybe not as important in the marathon.

This is certainly not a reason to avoid stretching and dynamic drills.

“I couldn’t touch my toes with straight legs, but I could break 4 minutes for the mile.”

— Roger Bannister

Are we sure this is stiffness and not length of legs relative to upper torso and arms? In many other places this ratio has been discussed as a factor in running success, and would certainly affect how easy it is to touch your toes.

Years ago when I devoted myself to learning everything I could to become a better runner, I realized that static stretching was counterproductive. (This was years before it was proven by studies.) I quit static stretching around 1997 and I've only done it under PT supervision since. Instead, I do dynamic stretches before every run. As a result, I'm both flexible and I still maintain some elastic bounce for fast running.

I also found that studies revealed that the loss of speed for very old runners came primarily from loss of stride length, not loss of cadence. I interpreted this to be a loss of range of motion from doing so much slow running.

Range of motion can be increased (for those lacking it) or maintained (by those having it) by doing short hill reps and HIIT intervals.

Jesus this thread is bad. Being flexible cant be bad for runners. Give me a break. Is it good.....maybe not but I would rather be flexible then not.

LetsRun.com wrote:

Using the contents of some tweets from Trent Stellingwerff and Steve Magness, Canadian Running has an interesting article on how stiffness leads to better running economy. Scientific studies have shown that stiff runners have better economy and the older you get the stiffer you get so that may be why Kipchoge is so good approaching 40.

Stekkungwerff saus:

“As you get older, your tendons get stiffer, I think this is partly why we’re seeing masters marathoners run so quickly. Think of Malindi Elmore, or even Eliud Kipchoge. They’re getting older but their running economy is getting better and they’re running faster.”

https://twitter.com/TStellingwerff/status/1254139281225838592https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/training/poor-sit-and-reach-results-can-mean-better-running-economy/

Perhaps, but an average stiff distance runner (say, recreational or club runner) can't do drills like this, and I think an average elite distance runner can. So, flexibility is all relative.

I've heard this same thing about stretching which seems so weird because you have entire yoga series for runners and generally any PT/Chiro/Massage Therapist will tell you that you are tight in calves/hamstrings/hips and thus it the reason that your glutes aren't activating and you have a weak core and you are injured which is why you are at a PT/Chiro/Massage therapist in the first place.

Then usually the prescribed resolution is the trifecta of strength training/mobility/stretching. So are we now completely removing stretching from that equation? If you have 30 mins a day to spend before bed on your mobility are you now better off spending 30 mins straight just foam rolling rather than 15 foam roll 15 stretch? Are Jay Dicharry and Kelly Starrett who are both doctorate level in this subject just both wrong if they say to stretch?

It's all very confusing

Ah, the chiro/PT/yoga gobbledygook word salad magical description of maladies. No thanks! To get better at running, one should.....run. Do you suppose that there were evolutionary mechanisms driving us to do downward dog, or touch toes, or the rest of it? Heck no. Just run. The stretching vs not thing has been around for many years. Stretching helps if you listen to someone trying to sell you yoga, or PT, or chiro, or whatever. Otherwise, it doesn't. Just run.

Just like a suspension bridge requires the right amount of tension. Not enough tension and the bridge won't hold itself up. Too much tension and the cables will snap.

Unfortunately there's a ton of stuff in the PT/etc. world with limited to no evidence of benefit. Stretching, foam rolling, ice bathing, KT tape, core exercise, massage, etc. If you feel like it helps, then by all means keep doing it, but I wouldn't say any of these things are necessary.

If you have 30 minutes a day for non-running exercises, I would just do some basic strength work and exercises targeted at your injury history.

LetsRun.com wrote:

Are you stiff as hell?

I was expecting a very different thread based on the title.

I think the key thing to remember is not to "Over Stretch". Light stretching including some range of motion specific to your sport is crucial. It's not about being able to touch your toes (not a bad thing) but more so of opening up the muscles, tendons, and ligaments to allow for more blood flow thus eliminating lactic acid and waste. Having a bit of tension/stiffness is ok but not to the point of restricting range of motion and limiting blood flow.

FYI-

I'm no doctor but am enjoying 40 years of running (20+ competing) and am 99% injury-free.

Go Run One!

Bob schul country wrote:

Jesus this thread is bad. Being flexible cant be bad for runners. Give me a break. Is it good.....maybe not but I would rather be flexible then not.

If it was bad, you made it worse by adding absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Kipchoge is "approaching" 40? Okay.

Stretching is bad. Dynamic warming up is good. Do you want to be a wiggling ballerina, or a dynamic pile of muscles? Cheetahs get up, slowly get their spines lined up, then sprint faster than anyone ever has or will.

Stiffness and tightness are two different things. 4 types of runners:

- Stiff and tight: Efficient, but choppy stride

- Stiff not tight: Efficient smoother strider

- Tight not stiff: Choppy inefficient stride

- Neither tight or stiff: Gumby