LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

Great job Phil!

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Well done Phil! Congrats!

Just wonder.........aren`t you curious how fast you could have developed and run with my method?

Not a single person on God's Green Earth is curious about that.

Back in your Scandinavian winter depression hole until April.

thesekidsunderstand245 wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Well done Phil! Congrats!

Just wonder.........aren`t you curious how fast you could have developed and run with my method?

Not a single person on God's Green Earth is curious about that.

.

I AM !! )))

Everyone who runs for president gets at least ONE vote, dipstick. Back in your hole before I get angry.

Nice job Phil. Stay consistent and keep collecting PBs!

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

thesekidsunderstand245 wrote:

Not a single person on God's Green Earth is curious about that.

.

I AM !! )))

Me 2!!!!

high school xc coach wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

I AM !! )))

Me 2!!!!

+1 ! :) Then we are at least 2 ..... : ))

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

Me 2!!!!

+1 ! :) Then we are at least 2 ..... : ))

But Phil isn't. And neither is Jamin. And neither was Kamworor.

With a more level pace of 3:10/ km your result should have been sub 15:50.......and still(with a fast opening first km at 3:00 ) able to finish in 3:02 was really strong . Your basic speed is very good and I`m sure you can run sub 15 at 5 k with proper training. Maybe it can go with your base building plan , but I`m sure you had done quicker improvement with another method.

Ananaaas wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

+1 ! :) Then we are at least 2 ..... : ))

But Phil isn't. And neither is Jamin. And neither was Kamworor.

I really think Jamin is curious , but there is something that holds him back . Have seen on Strava he keep on his unstructured training that will lead nowhere.......unfortunately. His last train to success has left platforms........without him on board.

When it comes to Kam he really asked me to coach a WR attempt at 15 k road in Seven Hills race that winter 2016 . Unfortunately he got sick in pneumonia when I had sent him his first training week.

Very nice, Phil. Not sure if you intended to say that it was a good idea to run the first K at 3:00 because it felt easy. I'm sure you know that the first K always feels easy unless you are way over your head. and that you'll run faster with more even splits on a flat course. If not, that should be welcome news to you.

The Dirty Duck wrote:

Very nice, Phil. Not sure if you intended to say that it was a good idea to run the first K at 3:00 because it felt easy. I'm sure you know that the first K always feels easy unless you are way over your head. and that you'll run faster with more even splits on a flat course. If not, that should be welcome news to you.

There was a light-moderate tailwind during k1&k5, and headwind in the middle section. Might have mattered a good bit since I'm a tall guy weighing 160 lbs. Also solo race, so no drafting. Winner went out in 2:48 and averaged 2:58, but he had a bike directly in front of him pacing him so he could set the under 18 record.

3k: 3:12-3:06-3:00

5k: 3:00-3:13-3:16-3:23-3:02

After the 5k I was dead on the floor and had to dry heave a lot, so I gave a lot. The 3k I started too slow, but it was still challenging to keep the faster pace up. However, after the race I was pretty fresh, definitely could have run faster with a faster start.

One thing I noticed, is that my cadence drops off significantly during the race. I started at 185-190, but after 2k was down to 174. The exact same thing happened during the 3k and other 5k race I did in the last few weeks. Not sure what my ideal cadence should be at 6'2", but it's worrying that it drops off so much each race.

When looking at good runners run a 5k, they always run it like a metronome with even splits. Cheptegei's pace or cadence didn't change a single bit during each of his WR. He also wasn't nearly as destroyed at the finish. If anyone knows what causes this drop off (weak core? too high HR? wrong muscle fibers in legs? bad arm swing? Vaporfly shoes? not enough recovered? etc.) let me know. Pacing issues shouldn't be, cos it even happened during the 3k TT.

- More cadence, less load to muscles, but more to cardiovascular system.

- Less cadence, more load to muscles, but less load to cardiovascular system.

If you have reserve by heart (heart is stronger than muscles), try always run by high cadence with shorter steps in order to safe weak muscles for a longer period.

If you have reserve by muscles (muscles are stronger than heart), try to run with lower cadence with longer steps in order to safe weak heart for a longer period.

During training make experiment:

Same pace increase cadence, you will see that heart rate will go up, but legs are light

Same pace reduce cadence, you will see that heart rate will go down, but legs are heavy.

By trying this you can find optimal cadence for different race distances, but take into account: much longer distance, more important to safe the legs. Good luck!

Canefis wrote:

- More cadence, less load to muscles, but more to cardiovascular system.

- Less cadence, more load to muscles, but less load to cardiovascular system.

If you have reserve by heart (heart is stronger than muscles), try always run by high cadence with shorter steps in order to safe weak muscles for a longer period.

If you have reserve by muscles (muscles are stronger than heart), try to run with lower cadence with longer steps in order to safe weak heart for a longer period.!

That makes sense somewhat. In cycling, I always used to bike with very high cadence, because my legs were limiting. I trained with mostly easy rides, which explains why I didn't have much power in the legs but a great heart.

In running it's hard for me to tell - the lactate tests always showed that I have very high HR at moderate speeds already, and very low/bad threshold. My race times severely exceed the expectations from lactate tests. I race a 5k at 95-97% max HR then pick it up to 100% in the kick usually.

So it seems the slowing down of cadence comes from me dieing aerobically/being at my limit with my VO2MAX/threshold, and my body trying to increase stride length to compensate for it.

I guess I need to do more tempo runs and longer thresholds that are really easy to bring the aerobic system up. All the hill sprints I did, and lots of 200s at the end of workouts, and endless strides made my legs quite strong for running, but I can't use them fully because my metabolism/cardiovascular system is not strong enough.

I'm also starting a gym routine and make my legs even stronger, maybe that improves efficiency and stride length as well.

Nice race Phil.

I am not quite sure why you would be considering adjusting cadence at this point. You are on the upswing again due to consistency, slowing down some of your harder efforts etc. Why not just do more of the same instead of introducing another variable into the equation?

highhoppingworm wrote:

Nice race Phil.

I am not quite sure why you would be considering adjusting cadence at this point. You are on the upswing again due to consistency, slowing down some of your harder efforts etc. Why not just do more of the same instead of introducing another variable into the equation?

this is a nice point. and one of the major reasons that all of the easy running improves us so much is that it trains your body to run RELAXED. So make sure easy runs really are appropriately easy. More relaxed should equal higher cadence, better heart rate, etc. The more the body knows this relaxed rhythm, it will be able to use it better during racing circumstances.

Agree withHHW and hsxc coach.

Also Phil, worth noting you said you had a tailwind and you were running faster in the first K in particular (3:00 split). Makes sense that you might be turning it over a bit faster then, as opposed to after you slowed down and ran into the wind.

Running even splits is a great goal when conditions are similar across a race. This goes for Cheptegei on the track and on the super-fast/flat road courses he's done. He didn't have any illusions about doing this in cross country. Road racing adds in different variables (hills, wind), which should have your focus being running equal effort throughout as opposed to being a metronome. A good example of this is Gidey in our 15K world best, who navigated that course to perfection, earning time on the downhill parts while not slogging on the uphills.

It`s very simple and obvious that you went out too fast and had to pay for it 2-4 th km , then last km 3:02 tells you had more left in you if you had run the race even paced and about 3:10/ km.Simple as that and basically not a question about cadence.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

It`s very simple and obvious that you went out too fast and had to pay for it 2-4 th km , then last km 3:02 tells you had more left in you if you had run the race even paced and about 3:10/ km.Simple as that and basically not a question about cadence.

Please stop posting on this thread.