Was Deena Kastor clean?

colorunner123 wrote:

The evidence that Kastor doped is basically the same as the evidence that Komen, Bekele, Gebrselassie, El Guerrouj, etc. doped: They ran very fast and they did so during a time period in which EPO use was very common. I wonder if some of the people who are 100% sure that Komen and El Guerrouj doped are the same people arguing that there's no way in hell that Kastor doped.

Go look up the word "evidence" and get back to us, Sherlock.

Llie detectors are very accurate. Let them all take one.

I've been of the opinion that it is pretty much impossible to be world-class without doping in distance running. If there is any runner of the past 20 years who was world-class who I would find most likely to be clean it would Deena. I'll go on thinking she was probably clean because I'm a naive Californian who followed her when I was a younger runner. But the jaded realist in me believes I'm cutting her slack as she runner I looked up to and if so many runners were dirty there is no way a clean athlete could ever get into the best in the world discussion.

I hope she was clean but I've been disappointed enough by our sports stars.

certainly wouldn't surprise me if she was. doesn't help that she didn't really have much of a training group and was pretty secluded most of the time.

The fact that one of her coaches was in charge of a few of her training partners when they later tested positive is really really sketchy. if more than one in a group is dirty you can reasonably assume they all are, especially if the coach is involved.

I don’t see what’s wrong with bringing up the possibility. I have no opinion, I was too young to have any opinion on her prime years. Any women that runs sub 2:20 definitely has the possibility of being dirty, I wouldn’t dismiss the idea so surely, especially during her era.

I have to go with colorunner. It is worth at least considering. I like his point that the evidence against Dena is exactly as strong as that against Komen. And rest assured, I've never read anyone arguing he was clean. The same goes for Cierpinski. Shorter constantly goes on and on - I've read the relevant chapters in 2 different books - about the guy he lost to, but he never failed a test. Still hasn't.

The evidence is also exactly equal to the evidence against Armstrong during his career. Keep in mind the 'failed tests' that some refer to from 1999 did not happen in 1999 or any time during his career. They were retests a decade later, in 2009. Lance never had any sanction from UCI nor WADA - again, during the time period in which he was competing. What this suggests is that testing has become more sophisticated and accurate since Lance and Dena were in their primes - a sentiment shared by colorunner. Exactly the point the doubters of El G would make: it was easy to get away with at the time.

This doesn't mean she juiced, but lack of failed tests and subsequent sanctions don't mean you didn't.

It is a fair question and she's one of the runners I've always looked up to and would be very disappointed if evidence of doping ever came to light.

I've met her in person and she struck me as incredibly genuine with a true passion for running. Also, her times at different distances just seemed to line up to me, including her masters races. She never ran a race where I'd wonder "where did that come from?" None of this proves she's clean, but she's one of the few who I'd give the benefit of the doubt to.

Oh, one more thing.... I remember 3 different posters, and I could be missing a few, going on about her being in LA her entire life. Don't know why anyone thinks that and makes accusations without evidence. Show the proof of her being somewhere in Southern California for more than 40 years.

She ditched SoCal in 1991. Didn't look back. Didn't regularly 'go home' during every school break like college students everywhere. Didn't stop by to do laundry and get a free meal between Arkansas and Alamosa. After that, spent decades in Northern California, fairly near me, actually. Succeeded in getting a modern track built, the only one in the county and not on any school property. Incidentally, I am in a neighboring county that doesn't have one at all.

Born on East Coast. Throughout her career, minimal (a few weeks at Olympic Training Center) affiliation with SoCal other than high school. Not from there, not there now. I may be coming across like the fan that I am. I have her book several feet from where I sit. I just think speculating about her drug use and speculating about any Kenyan's is equally outrageous, which is to say, not outrageous at all.

L.A. people fear doping control more than others. If you dope you won't be in L.A. like Deena has.

Wasn't there a UCLA professor who's an amateur cyclist and technician who just got popped for EPO? The hypocrisy of California.

So Why Is wrote:

My respect for the brojos is somewhat limited by the fact that they allow threads like this to exist. As for the OP, I wouldn't let him on my lawn.

Identity politics in running! I find the premise of you respectfully starting a discussion of a subject that is so upsetting to me that I don’t want to hear your opinion or have you come near me.

It's not a"discussion." Nobody has any evidence or even any valid points.

DK always honors our one-of-a-kind, unique Southern California sports traditions that have earned us the most Olympic Medals in the World. DK may have trained elsewhere but she never left her roots in Ventura County.

I ran on the same team with Deena in HS and she was the hardest worker I have ever seen. Very dedicated and focused on top of loads of natural talent. She didn’t all of a sudden get good. She was always great. I didn’t really run with her much because she mainly trained with the guys team instead of the girls and even then left tons of the guys in her dust. She really was and is remarkable and it wasn’t because of doping.

What is the "worth" of "at least considering" it? Is there any possible benefit? It seems like it can only further damage clean reputations and the sport.

Assuming for discussion that EPO can bring the faster elite performances that many believe, one big difference between Deena and these world record holders is that Deena ran far from the fastest times at that time -- more than 4 minutes slower in the marathon and 80 seconds slower in the 10K. According to EPO mythology, this is precisely where the most devout would predict the best clean runners to be.

Don't be mistaken that failed tests is the only possible evidence against an athlete. For example, Cierpinski was named in East German Stasi files documenting East German doping.

You also need to update your knowledge of Lance's failed tests. He failed 4 tests in July 1999, during the tour, for cortico-steroids. The EPO tests in the French labs resulting in 6 more failed tests (from the 1999 tour) occurred during 2004-2005 timeframe, during Lance's career, and during Deena's career, and not a decade later in 2009.

Also during Lance's career, his association with Ferrari became known in 2001. At that time, Ferrari already had a solid reputation for doping athletes. David Walsh wrote a book in 2003, with testimony from Emma O'Reilly. In 2005, there was a lawsuit with SCA Promotions, where Betsy Andreu also brought damaging testimony. This is evidence against Lance, during his career, that we don't have against Deena.

Combine this with testimony from many former teammates and former employees and former friends, it is simply not true that "the evidence is also exactly equal to the evidence against Armstrong during his career", and also 15 years after Lance's first retirement, and 14 years after Deena's best marathon performance.

Lance and Cierpinski have tangible evidence besides failed testing and failed sanctions, against them. This is not the case with Deena, nor Komen, El G, Bekele, Geb., etc., where the only evidence is a weak association with a timeframe where many believe, also without strong or conclusive evidence, that EPO was a main factor for the fast times of the elite runners of that era.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

... I'll go on thinking she was probably clean because I'm a naive Californian who followed her when I was a younger runner. ...

Just wondering. Is that what you meant -- or did you mean *native* Californian?

In multiple surveys conducted in 2014, letsrun asked this question about female stars, including Deena.

If popular vote is any indication, only 13.7% of the respondents believed Deena was dirty, putting her strongly on the clean end of the spectrum. There is likely a small percentage of hardcore respondents who believe everyone is dirty above a certain level, as the "cleanest" stars came in at around 7-8%..

Compare this to other names in the survey, and we can see that perceptions vary widely, for athletes with "exactly the same evidence":

Ryan Hall (11%)

Geb (26.9%)

Bekele (28.33%)

Paula (*) (28.48%)

Komen (39.06%)

El G (56.83%)

(*) Some would say leaked blood tests results are evidence, but this survey was conducted before the leak.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/02/female-track-field-stars-dirty-clean-doping-poll-results/

While it would probably be unwise to consider anyone above reproach as there is always some uncertainty involved, I consider Coach Vigil as close as they come. He is kind of the last ambassador of a "golden age" of coaches who just seem purely interested in really hard work and a spartan lifestyle. I know that Coach Vigil believes Deena to be completely clean. Does that make it so? No. But as has already been alluded, she's probably as close to the sure thing as we can get around here.

As a whistle.

Also: get bent.